2017.04.02: Kinfolk Meeting

Kinfolk Meeting
Furio Cabrini calls together a meeting of the sept's Kinfolk to discuss the comments of one Jake Defiant-Storm.
IC Date	April 2, 2017
IC Time	6:30pm PST
Players	Furio, Halle, Bliss, Lieselotte, Vesta, Sirius, Katerina, Zeppelin, Nicolette. Isolde, Sebastien, and Rhys observing via remote video link.
Location	The Kinfolk House.
Spheres	Garou, Fera, Kinfolk.

And so it has come to pass that a goodly number of Enduring Spirit's Kinfolk have been gathered here, at the Kinhouse, their place of safety. When one arrives, they'll find a buffet table set out with plenty of eats. Sliced cold cuts, cheese, and fixings for sandwiches, a steaming-hot baking dish filled with cheesy baked mostaccioli, a big bowl of salad with various dressings and condiments, and a big tray of fresh canoli. There's beer, wine, liquor, soda, and water for beverages. The man calling the meeting, Furio Cabrini, stands close at hand, munching on a sammich as he examines a little glowing blue LED dot on the wall. There's a couple more dots at his temples, inset into silver studs. "Widen the angle a bit, Eva, wouldja?" he says around a mouthful of sammich. He looks up at the corners of the room, studying round pads about the size of a soda bottle bottom hanging from the drywall. "Audio check." A moment later, he nods. "Good. Send the feed back to home." He turns back to the door, watching his fellow Kinfolk file in. Though he's friendly and cordial, there's a firm set to his bearded jaw. "I'd like to thank you all for comin' tonight," he says. He looks up at the blue dot on the wall. "An' I'd like to thank our noble warriors for comin' to observe. I'm hopin' what we discuss here will help us all come to a better understandin' of some things."

Zeppelin skips into the room. Literally. She skips in. Zeppelin will also grab some food and park herself towards the back and near the exit. The kin will do one other thing. BEWARE. If able, she'll hug everyone that comes in.

The ways of Unsea are strange still. Perhaps - as Sirius is strongly coming to suspect - they will forever /be/ strange. Even so, the Grotto deep in the forest is a place to which he has found himself enormously attached. His particular element of Pure Breed is probably lost on most everyone else and he expects nothing different given the lack of Sea in the forest, but he is quietly content to sit in the corner with a cup of cool water cradled between both hands - cross-legged and unobtrusive.

Nicolette steps into the house and glances around just a touch uncertainly. She nods to Furio in greeting and grabs a soda off the drink table. Finding a chair, she curls into it and watches as the others arrive.

Katerina had debated attending, technically not being a kinfolk of this sept, but with the situation as it stood she decided it was worth it, and anyone who had an objection with her attendance could bring it up at the time. Furio's talking to some disembodied 'Eva' has her quirk a brow for a moment before his opening address has her put two and two together and she looks over at the blue dot as well. There's a brief flash of a reassuring smile in that direction, likely for someone on the other side of it before she turns her full attention to the meeting. "Thank you for putting all this together." She offers, politely to Furio as she takes her seat.

Halle sits listening quietly.

Furio nods his head. Zeppelin is given a hug, of course, and a gesture towards the food table. "Everyone help yaselves. I made plenty," he says. He picks up a beer for himself, cracking the top and guzzling a long swallow. Once everyone is settled, he looks around. "Now then. The reason I've called you all here... I'm sure everyone has heard 'bout the statement Jake Defiant-Storm made concernin' us, how we address the Elders of our Nation, an' possible consequences." He looks towards Zeppelin. "I've already had this conversation with at least some folks. But I felt it might be useful for the Kinfolk as a group to have a dialog," he says. Looking back to the group at large. "So... lemme begin by askin' a question. Who here has ever seen a Garou frenzy? Raise ya hand?" Up his hand goes as he looks around the room.

Zeppelin raises her hand and munches on food from her position to observe the room.

Katerina takes the invitation to quietly help herself to a glass of wine. As she returns to her seat she raises her hand in answer to Furio's question. She regards the glasswalker kin curiously.

Nicolette also raises her hand in response.

Halle raises her hand.

Sirius pulls one hand from his cup of water to lift, then pauses mid-motion and chews on his lower lip while making a questioning motion with that half-raised hand. "I have seen Rokea frenzy, but I am unsure if this is close enough for your desired reference point?"

Furio arches a shaggy gray brow as hands go up. "Hunh. More'n I thought," he says. He drops his hand. He looks over to Sirius. "Close enough," he says. "A'right. So... you all know how easy it can happen. You know that Rage... ain't a rational thing. If the conditions are right, even the slightest push can make it explode." He turns his gaze across the assembled Kin. "Now... I know many of you probably think that it's on the Garou to keep their Rage contained. But even the strongest will eventually breaks--an' it only takes once." He sips his beer. "I was gonna share with you all a very painful memory o' mine. From about thirty years ago. It was Christmas Eve, 1986. I'd just graduated college, an' my little brother Julian had just made Cliath." He frowns a bit as he recalls the memory. "Well... long story short... we'd been havin' a good time, an' everything seemed okay. But then, we got into an argument over a bet we'd made. His pack told me to leave, an' I was goin' to. I gave 'is shoulder a little punch. Nothin' aggressive, nothin' mean or hateful. I was just messin' around with my little brother, like we'd done all our lives. Only this time... it made 'im snap." He draws a deep breath and lets it out. "If his pack hadn't been there to pull 'im off me, I wouldn't be standin' here right now. An' even with the Den Mother fixin' my hip with Mother's Touch, it was still almost a week before I could walk again." He looks out and around at the group. "You all understand this, yeah? You know how easy it can be, for even the strongest an' most careful Garou to lose themselves to the Rage."

Nicolette pauses with her soda halfway to her lips, then nods silently. Yep. She knows. She knows all too well. She takes her sip and glances around the room.

Vesta is running a little late. That happens when you have a baby and ESPECIALLY if you are forced to not be WITH your baby. That also takes a lot of prep. And so she enters quietly and takes a seat, smoothing her jeans down along her legs and pulling her hair over her shoulder so she doesn't sit on it

Katerina listens to Furio's story, a look of sympathy on her face. She nods in turn. There was a reason she went from living with her Ahroun father to marrying a Ragabash.

Zeppelin doesn't react, but to be fair she's heard the story a few times now. She is watching the people in the room though.

Sirius nods in response to Furio's answer, taking it as a metric by which to estimate mentally the sort of response in Garou. He is silent during the story and a little while after, as well, though Vesta's arrival is greeted with a small smile. "There is an interesting human concept about which I have been learning," he begins, calm and curious in the cloud of peace and tranquility that follows him everywhere. "And the similarity strikes me as potentially meaningful here as well." It's a polite preface. "But even when they are subject to chemicals which eliminate or severely diminish their ability to make informed choices about their own actions - the way Rage does to the Changing Breeds - their legal system still holds them responsible for those actions. In essence, there may have been no intent to harm, but harm was still done. So the consequences, while less severe than they would have been if there had been malicious intent, still fall on the one who took the action that resulted in harm." He pauses then, allowing the concept to settle and a chance to sip at his water. "No one would consider it just to physically harm someone who chose to drive at night, not even with the justification of teaching them not to drive at night lest they be hit by a drunk driver. Why is it that this scenario is so different? I am afraid I do not understand."

Furio regards Sirius as he poses his question. "Because learnin' to drive at night is somethin' you'd expect from someone meanin' to operate a motor vehicle," he says. "However, showin' blatant disrespect to one of our warriors... or worse, one of our -Elders-... that's a whole different matter." He looks back to the rest of the group. "It's frightening," he says. "Even for someone like me. With all my power. If I ain't got my tech on me, or if I ain't got enough time to get Code runnin'... I'm screwed. We's all screwed." He drains his bottle and sets it in the recycling hamper. "Now... I know a lotta you's are upset with the way Jake reacted. An' I'll agree, he coulda worded things more diplomatically. But speakin' from the heart here, he's one o' my best friends in this Sept. I've seen him in battle. He's always fought to keep this place safe for us all." He shakes his head. "I may be old-fashioned. But when I was a kid, an' I acted outta turn, I got a belt to my ass." He lifts a hand. "Now I know, you folks ain't kids. I know that. But Endurin' Spirit is notable for bein' one of the most liberal septs in the Nation. We have -unprecedented- freedom an' access to our warriors. We's damn near given equal treatment. I've even earned Renown from the Elders here, even bein' Kinmagi. Hell, the fact that I am Kinmagi, an' I'm still allowed to visit the caern... that any of us are allowed to visit the caern... that's unheard of." He regards the group earnestly. "Jake ain't lookin' to go around beatin' the shit outta Kin who've had a bad day an' tell a Garou to go fuck 'emselves. But what he does intend to do is ensure that our Elders are given their proper respect. An' when they don't get it, there's to be consequences for that. I don't find that unreasonable at all." He looks back to Zeppelin. "I know that there's arguments to be made. It ain't Jake's place to be dispensin' judgement. He's an Ahroun, not a Philodox. I get that. But. I believe that policing our own, that makin' sure we's all on the look-out for bad behavior that could result in serious tragedy... that's everyone's responsibility."

Zeppelin watches as people talk and then listens to the words spoken. When Furio looks at her, she meets his eyes and then her hand raises up as if she has a statement to make or a question to pose.

Katerina's brows furrow in confusion as Furio continues to speak. "I think there'd been a disconnect about what people- at least most of the people in my social sphere are upset abo-" She cuts herself off when she sees Zeppelin raise her hand. "Sorry." She offers to the kin. "Didn't mean to speak out of turn," Her eyes flick momentarily to the blue dot on the wall.

Nicolette tilts her head as she regards Furio with considerable interest. She's gone from being not quite sure what all this is about to being intensely interested in the space of just a few seconds. She glances curiously around the room at the kin present, watching their reactions.

Sirius considers that for a moment, head tilting to one side and then the other. There are very obviously some elements that still aren't adding up for the Sea-born in the corner, but since there are others who wish to speak, he is perfectly willing to be patient. Either his questions will be addressed by others or they can be brought up in a little while.

Furio nods to Katerina. "'s okay," he says. "We ain't gonna be silencing any voices here. Everyone's gonna have a chance to speak." He looks over to Zeppelin. "What've you got, Zep?" he asks.

Zeppelin clears her throat for a moment as she remains sitting and her voice is calm. She does sort of look around the room to read the faces of those here. A breath is taken in and slowly released.

"Garous...Shifters.. are creatures of rage. I think we can all agree to this. The rage pulls on them in ways most of us will not understand. I think we can agree to this as well. As it is notorious for doctors to have bad handwriting, it is also notorious for Ahrouns to have bad diplomacy. There are exceptions to every rule, but I do not think this matter was the exception. You don't send an Ahroun to diplomacy talks, but you do send them to the front lines."

"It is also true that we are to have mutual respect. Shifters are flawed just as much as we are. Elders should be respected for their sacrifices made, but they are not Gods. I do not bow my head and take my knees in worship of them. They can be wrong just as much as any of us can do. It takes a strong leader to admit they are wrong and apologize. I will say that I have seen Jake apologize before when things got a little out of hand, so that speaks for him. However, this matter is not just Jake specifically."

"There are tribes and other shifters in our Nation that see all kinfolk as a manner of things to be beaten and owned. I am not saying Jake in this. I do not think that of him. The problem lies that when an Ahroun allows a threat of violence and says that he will enact the judgment and punishment; it allows the same to be true of those that are not Jake. Those that would step forward and use the line he said to explain and rationalize their behaviors. This cannot be allowed. I have respect for Jake. We had our own misunderstanding and through mutual admittance of wrongdoing, moved past it. I am not against Jake. I am not against any Elder in this Sept. However..."

"I am against being told that my safety measures are not mine. I know I'm not going to call any Elder a dick, or a douche and I will shut up when told instead of running my mouth off. However, I stand by my stance that it needs to be recanted. The rest can stay and he made amazing points, but they were ignored by the promise given. I would like it recanted and I would like it said that those Garou actually go to those that do speak for me and are my shield. Now if I get haughty and say I don't need that shield, those actions are on me. I should still have it. One hit can be a death hit. So in respect, and knowing all the sides. I propose he recants and we meet one on one with the kinfolk to see to helping them understand. Then we move forwards, we need the respect as well as we are giving it. We need our own safety measures. We must act within the scope of our place within the tribe and shifters must do the same. Leave it to Philodox to give judgment and punishment, not the other three. They have their strengths and are respected for it."

Katerina inclines her head to Furio when he's done speaking to her then shifts her attention to listen to Zeppelin speak. She nods along with her fellow kinfolk, seeming to at least agree with the basics. She glances around the room. "I've something in a similar vein from a different perspective... if no one else wants to respond?"

Furio nods his head to Zeppelin. "I understand where ya comin' from, Zep," he says. "We've had this discussion, you an' I, privately." He looks back around at the other Kin. "Let's hear what other folks have to say. He sets his gaze on Katarina. "Go ahead," he says with a nod.

Lieselotte has mostly kept to herself, though she's popped up a couple of times when her cousin asked her to. Getting poked at to get out more has her attending this meeting. Some kind of gathering for the rest of the kin. She's careful to close the door as she enters, though there's no staff with her this time around. Settling in, she takes a look around at the others and nods, "Evening. Is this the right place? I'm relatively new."

Furio nods to Lieselotte, silently waving her in and gesturing to the buffet table still loaded with food. He's waiting for Katarina to speak.

Katerina surveys the room for a moment before beginning. "I'll admit I don't know a lot of you, and my mate and I are new to the area and this sept." She begins. "So if anything I say seems woefully out of place I apologize and welcome correction."

She looks towards Furio as she speaks, "I like to think I have some understanding of where Defiant-Storm-Ryah is coming from, not because I have known him personally for exceedingly long but from having been raised in what you would all likely consider a highly conservative Shadow Lord sept. Respect is an issue that our tribe takes very seriously, and his speaking to a lack of respect is not what I see a problem with. It is a group effort between the kin and the true to help our loved ones contain their rage. That is not what I see a problem with either."

Her eyes shift to Zeppelin, "It is the fact that Defiant-Storm-Ryah has stated that should I, theoretically, show what he would term disrespect and he will enact violence upon me and that he claims there is nothing my mate can do about it. If I comprise the territory of another what right does he have to strike me? The old-fashioned metaphor of getting the belt when one misbehaves breaks down at the point where Defiant-Storm-Ryah doesn't have an business being the one holding that belt. The denfather, my tribal elder, and most of all my wife, do." She takes a sip from her wine glass, "We can all understand speaking from the heart in a frustrated moment, we can all understand Full Moons and diplomacy, and I think we can all also understand how threatening others loved ones in such a fashion causes fear amongst the kin and tension between the true."

Halle tells Sirius softly, "I'm not the most knowledgeable at human law. But I think the difference is, the human chose to get drunk or high. The Garou, or shifter, did not choose to have Rage, did not choose to lose control to it. I'm not sure how accurate movies are, but some I've watched with Kevin have spoken of... someone who cannot judge right and wrong is not held accountable by the law. It seems to me, that is the better comparison to a Garou who has frenzied. He or she has no control, and it wasn't of their doing."

Vesta pushes up to her feet. "My mate is a Theurge, also an Elder. My son, one day, will be a Cub. He will go through his first change. If Gaia is willing, we will catch it in time and his first change will not result in someone's death. Garou are violent. Garou are unpredictable. Even the calmest Ragabash can lose his shit at a moment's notice for something that seems absolutely silly to the rest of us. But here is a fact.

I've seen Jake almost lose his shit a time or two. You know when that happens? When someone - not even necessarily a kin, has been disrespectful. That's his trigger. This was something that was said during the course of a conversation with a bunch of kinfolk. It wasns't an official proclamation. It was a CONVERSATION that got repeated. Was it inaccurate? No. It wasn't. He admits that's what he said, but you are all behaving as if he howled this from the top of the tallest tower and declared himself King Shit of Turd Mountain. What EVERYONE needs to do is maybe go talk to Jake. I'm not even QUITE sure why this meeting is happening. All this is doing is further creating a divide between Us and Them. Go talk to Jake. I have." She takes a breath and moves over to sit next to Nicolette.

Lieselotte nods at Furio and moves to get a little bit to eat before finding a seat. Once settled, she wraps the skin around her a little tighter and leans back to listen to the rest of the group.

Furio looks to Halle as she speaks to Sirius. "Excellent point, Halle," he says. "Wish I'd thought of it myself. That's actually spot on." He then nods his head to Katarina. "Also valid points," he says. "But not all of us are fortunate enough to have been claimed as mates. An' even regardless o' that... if you took it inta your head to go up to an' Elder an' start poppin' off at the mouth, despite every warning an' all common sense, an' nobody did nothin' about it?" He shakes his head. "It's like I said--he ain't lookin' to go beatin' the shit outta folks because they say somethin' off-color or in the heat of the moment. I'm talkin' about prolonged disrespect. Enough to stir the Rage. We've seen it happen in this sept before, an' it seems like some folks just ain't learned." He scowls a bit. "Honestly? Truth be told? What Jake suggested is a hell of a lot kinder 'n what I'd do, given the option. I got no trouble shuntin' someone into a null dimension for awhile, if it gets 'em outta the situation. Better that then risk multiple innocent people gettin' hurt--or killed--because someone had to have the last word an' didn't care about the consequences." He crosses his arms across his chest. "I'm a Virtual Adept. My Tradition o' wizards are champions of democracy an' freedom of expression. But there's all too often more than just the perpetrator at risk. There's kids out there. There's families. I'm not prepared to permit that kinda risk, just because someone's got a hair up they ass at one of the warriors." He nods to Zeppelin. "Now I agree with Zeppelin. I think it'd be prudent for Jake to take back what he said, apologize for the misunderstanding, an' clarify his intentions. The last thing any of us want is Kinfolk bein' afraid of the very warriors whose duty it is to protect us. But I can't disagree with the sentiment of what Jake said. An' as I said... no trouble puttin' someone in Time Out if they's bein' an idiot." He looks over to Vesta and nods. "Thanks for that, Vesta," he says. "That puts a lotta things in perspective. We need that."

Zeppelin lifts her brows a bit at Vesta and then at Furio. "Whoa." The one word so maybe she won't be as wordy this time. "Furio, I don't think this is the time to start waving around how you are a mage and you will null dimension anyone. I mean that. Magic is cool to me, but it's not to everyone. So maybe stand down a bit. This is supposed to be a discussion. You need to talk with people not at them." Her voice is calm though when she speaks. She looks towards Vesta. "Jake knows his speech got out, his doing, kin doing, gossip doing, it's out there. His words are out there. He needs to own them in public, not in side meetings one-on-one. It was made public and the intention needs to be made public as well." She looks at the others. "As I said, I have no issue with Jake personally. This is not a personal attack to his character. It is the words and that he said he will act against a kin and ignore that there are reasons that steps are in place. In the last issue, the kin was completely in the wrong in my eyes. I am not blinded that we can be wrong. I've been wrong before. It happens. However, there are steps that should be taken. It is a fact that a large divide was created by that speech. There is not one here that has not seen that divide or heard of it. So to fix it, it is only logical it must be done by the same person giving the speech in the first part." She looks around. "I am not a Philodox. It is only my opinion as a kinfolk of this Sept and upon listening to many sides of this debate."

"And he would do so. Gladly. Of that I have no doubt. The 'side meetings' that he had - one was in public and the other one, Quentin asked him to come to speak privately. He HAS owned up to them. But instead of talking WITH him, we are all sitting here talking ABOUT him," Vesta offers because the player has to AFK for several minutes and I don't want to miss it.

Sirius leans closer to Halle when she addresses him quietly, posture open and expression curious until the point where the proverbial 'lightbulb' goes off behind his eyes and he nods enthusiastically. "Yes, that's called a plea of insanity." He stops, tilts his head to one side and purses his lips. "Insanity plea? Diminished capacity? Something like that. But even then, if they present a continued danger to people around them, they're sent to places that are separate, where they can't hurt anyone. Steps are taken to diminish the danger they pose. Not that I'm saying the true born should be sent away somewhere or anything like that," he amends quickly. "Just that even in those cases steps are taken to neutralize the person who is the source of the danger, not asking everyone around them to live their lives constantly on the lookout for someone who could hurt them whether they mean to or not." Vesta's response, however, startles him enough that he jerks back, impossibly bright eyes momentarily wide. "You just described a wild animal, ma'am." There is a trembling in his hands that sloshes the water inside his cup, but he manages to keep his voice steady - a feat that would be easier if he could be effected by his own aura. "Violent. Unpredictable. Entirely unable to help themselves. Does that not do the true born a disservice? They are more than just wolf or lion or shark, they are human and spirit as well." His discomfort with the tone of her statement is evident, however, in his body language. "We were called and we came. I understand loyalty to your pod and those close to you, but there is an accusation in your phrasing that feels a little bit misplaced. Nevermind that this is a subject of importance to everyone here well beyond the /specific/ incident in question. I have little to fear from the frenzy. The gifts of my mother quell rage in those who draw near to me. But for those without these protections, where the line is drawn in the shared responsibility is a vital one - and one that deserves extended consideration and civilized discussion, surely?"

The look Katerina gives Furio when he speaks of null dimensions is sharp, though it passes after just a moment. It certainly seems to help that Zepplin is already speaking to the matter. She consider's Vesta's words for a moment before shrugging, "His conversation did get out, the only context many of us had was that he was proclaiming himself the Shit King of Turd Mountain, to borrow a phrase." She pauses momentarily to polish off her wine and set her glass aside. "I don't know about you but to me the wiser thing to do when an Athro Ahroun appears to promise violence is go to the kin meeting where you can get some more context instead of blindly wandering in to what, for all you know, might still be a rage triggered Trueborn." Katerina takes a moment to check her temper. "No one is trying to besmirch Defiant-Storm-Ryah's character, we all understand the circumstances. Some of us lacked essential information and now we have it, thank you for that, but there's no need to shame people for action with caution upon the information that they had available to them." She takes a breath in and out to clear her head.

Vesta frowns as Sirius speaks and she shakes her head. "No. I get that you're new around here and new to people in general, but you're taking words and twisting them around. They ARE violent and they ARE unpredictable. I did not say that they have no control over themselves. I'm saying everyone has their triggers." She sighs. "Look. How about all of us. Right now... just call Jake in here and let HIM tell you DIRECTLY. Answer your questions. I can have him here LITERALLY in a few seconds if you guys want to chat with him." She nods to Katerina. "I'm not shaming anyone. I'm stating my opinion. We've had our meeting. We all agree, I think, that it isn't as bad as it sounds. So let's get him in here to tell his side of things. ALSO.. why are there kin here who aren't Garou-affilliated? This is about GAROU law. Not Fera law." Vesta is PROBABLY being confrontational, but her tone is smooth at least.

Bliss' gaze flits curiously from one person to another as they speak. She remains by the door, watching the exchange without adding to it. She arrived late to the meeting, and is piecing together what she missed through the conversation around her. As Vesta mentions bringing Jake in to speak for himself, she nods her head in silent agreement.

Nicolette leans lightly against Vesta for a moment, just giving her shoulder a friendly little nudge. And then she finally speaks up. "Last Sept I had any "involvement" with before moving here, Kin weren't allowed anywhere near the Caern. To even address a Garou in a manner that wasn't the utmost respectful was unthinkable." Yeah, she makes the air quotes with her fingers. "I just...don't think a lot of people here know how good you all have it. To disrespect an Elder back there? For a Kin, you were pretty much forfeiting your life. If Jake-rhya was out of line in any way, then it's the place of his peers and Elders to question his actions and words. Not ours. Isn't it?"

Furio looks over to Vesta. "I wanted to have a discussion about what was said without 'im feelin' like he was bein' put on the spot," he says. "That's why I didn't want any Garou here. Everyone here has raised valid points, an' they all merit discussion. But addin' Rage to the mix here... that seemed like somethin' dangerous." He looks over to Zeppelin, frowning a bit. "It doesn't hurt," he says softly. "It's just... a space pocket. Somewhere nobody can reach 'em. So they'd be safe, but they'd also be removed from the situation." He sighs, shaking his head. "Look," he says. "Everyone. Jake is a good man. A good friend to me, an' a good friend to the sept. An' he's a good friend to you. Vesta's right--everyone's gettin' bent outta shape for no good reason. As long as we do what we know we's supposed to, then ain't nothin' gonna happen." He nods to Nicolette. "You's right," he says. "But it's like Zeppelin said. Despite what Jake intended, this whole thing is pushin' the Kin apart from the Garou. I'm tryin' to heal that breech." He looks after Katarina as she walks out with a scowl. "Doin' a piss-poor job of it, too," he grumbles with a sigh. "Dammit. Julian was always the charmer. Why'd I have to get all the brains, ah? Don't seem right." He looks back to Vesta. "I can text Jake an' see if he'd be willin' to come an' talk to us. Maybe that's what we need to clear the air here."

Lieselotte seems to at least be listening to all of the differing viewpoints. Having finished with the food she stands and takes it to whatever trash recepticle has been set up to be polite about it. She seems a little confused by the practice, as if it's not something she would normally do. Turning to face the rest of the group, "I am new here. I'm Lydia's cousin, Lieselotte Heideain, and If I haven't met you yet then hello. I think I have a pretty good understanding so far as to what the issue is. At least as far as I'm concerned, it's not really an issue. I didn't really mind the tone of the speach. Talk shit, get hit. I can live with that. If you want to talk shit, then you should be able to fight for it. Might makes right. Basically, to summarize, if anyone wants to try to kill me for what I said I feel like that's fair game and I respect their commitment but I'm not going to lie down and take it either." She shrugs a bit, "And if someone isn't supposed to hit you because you have a mate, then that's really up to your mate to enforce."

Halle listens to Zeppelin and Sirius, pausing in thought for a few moments after. Halle nods towards Nicolette in agreement. "I'm not sure your name," she says to Sirius, giving him a friendly smile. "I'm Halle, kin to the Children of Gaia. I think you touch on something important in all of this. The nature of the shifters. I know Garou best so will limit my comments to them. Yes, they are a melding of human, of wolf, of spirit. Calling them wild animal is not right. But to think Garou do not feel the pull of the same instincts that wolves do is probably equally not right."

Halle pauses a moment again, trying to pick her words carefully. "Jake's words did not astonish me. My experience is Garou, like wolves are creatures of dominance. For a kin to test that with an Elder at the level of disrespect I believe Jake was speaking to, I think they should expect to feel a Garou's teeth around their throat to remind them, this is not human society, and we kin are not equals to them. I would not expect to wait for a Philodox to show up. I expect the Elder would do it then and there. This is even before we start speaking of the danger of Frenzies, where for the safety of all Kin, it's best to avoid situations that can provoke a frenzy. Which also explains that, I don't find Furio's statements that he would consider intervening to defuse such a situation to be unusual either."

Vesta smiles at Nicolette and nudges her right back, then stands up when Halle speaks. "THANK you. Oh my god, thank you." She flops back down and leans against Nicolette with a sigh.

Zeppelin takes a breath and releases it lightly. "We need to stop attacking each other. Stop saying people don't know how good they have it. You have no clue what anyone in this room has gone through. You have no clue the paths they have walked. Do not insult their intelligence or their knowledge base because you do not agree with what they are saying. I was raised on a very very laid back area. I had some growing pains when I first got here, but I get it. This is an issue that both sides need to make a compromise on. However, you cannot put one side up on a pedestal and tell the other just to suck it up without some push back. This Sept is pretty laid back. It has been allowed to be laid back. That happened by those that ran it. You cannot then overnight tell them to change everything they are use to because it no longer serves the personal purpose. There is a standard that is in place. They want to refer to the military? So be it. When you are married to the military, you are under a lot of rules and regulations. When you step out of line as a spouse, then your spouse takes the heat. They are stripped, they are given more work, whatever their commanding officers tell them. Their CO's do not show up at your door and backhand you. They tell your spouse to handle their wife or husband." She turns her attention towards Halle, her voice is still calm. Her brows lift a bit to Halle and then she looks at Vesta. There is a shake of her head before she looks around the room.

Sirius is about as violent as a wet noodle and as sharp as a golden retriever still in milk teeth, but life as Rorqual sets a certain expectation as to the level of respect one is to expect inside civilized discourse where no insult has been offered. So that level of confrontation makes him sit up straighter, hands still shaking but chin lifted. "This seems to me an issue of concern for /all/ Kinfolk coming in and out of the caern, unless you sincerely mean to tell me that you expect the Fera kin to be exempt from Garou notions of justice. If this is a ruling you expect people to live by and with, you should be open to answering their questions and addressing their concerns, not exclude them from the venue to do so while also expecting them to abide by such things." And though he falls silent to let Nicolette and Halle and Zeppelin speak uninterrupted, the atmosphere has been tangibly altered and he shakes his head. "If this is to be a Garou-only matter, however, then I shall of course withdraw."

"Not my meeting. I was asking a question" Vesta says to Sirius. "But I DID ask a DIFFERENT question that no one seems to want to answer. Do you want Jake here to answer your questions or do you want to just keep arguing about semantics?"

Furio looks back to Vesta. "With the way tempers are runnin' here, I really don't think it's a good idea to have Jake here in person." He rubs his beard thoughtfully. "I can have 'im go to my penthouse, an' we can talk to 'im over video. Might help keep things calmer." He looks between Halle and Zeppelin, listening to their conversation.

"Annie being reprimanded for her disrespect towards Shaderunner-ryah, and the notion of Defiant-Storm-Ryah personally offering kinfolk violence are two different things." Katerina says, running a hand through her hair so she has at least something to fidget with. "I too, come from a sept where my own father would have mauled me within an inch of my life for behaving the way she did. I don't think anyone here is taking for granted how good they have it or trying to say there shouldn't be consequences for that kind of disrespect." She sighs, "Thanks to Furio and Vesta I now know that my concerns were a non-issue. Fantastic, at this point Vesta is right, we should either move on or disperse." Kat seems dead set on ignoring the Fera derail in the corner.

Nicolette nods (belatedly) at Halle's words about Garou being dominant and such. "Yes...that," she agrees. And she inclines her head to Zeppelin. "I didn't mean any insult. I'm sorry. I'm just grateful that I'm accepted and allowed to feel like I'm part of something here. I didn't have that before. It's new to me, and it's so much better than being kept at a distance. If toeing the line and respecting my Elders is the price I have to pay for it, then for me, I'm good with that. That's all I'm saying."

"You said it is about Garou Law, not Fera Law. And yet the Garou also expect Fera to follow Garou Law. It was a question, but a pointed one. If you wish me to follow Garou Law and then question my presence in a meeting to discuss and clarify the law you wish me to follow, that makes a statement all its own." And despite the fact that he manages to keep his voice steady, this is one place where the difference between the world he knows and this world he does not is awful and unfair and entirely overwhelming. There is only so much that sheer force of will alone can do to overcome just so much at once and there is a very distinct shake to Sirius' legs as he stands, disposes of his cup and offers a jerky nod of respect toward the meeting's host. He's out.

"Maybe I can help?" A small voice pipes up from against the wall. Bliss straightens and drops her hands to her sides. "I can help keep the room calm, much like .. mm .. what was his name again? Kanu? I think that's right, yeah? It makes it much easier to remain calm or find your calm again should tempers be lost. I trust Jake, and his hold of his temper. So long as we're not all disrespectful to him, I don't think it should be a problem, yeah?"

Zeppelin shakes her head. "I am not upset. I have heard these statements before. Everything being said by all parties has been heard and said and discussed before. I just disagree. I do it respectfully, though. I believe you are right to how you feel matters should be just as those that don't have their right of opinion. I do not believe that any elder or any shifter should have the right to just dispense an action against a kin. I believe the proper steps are to have the kin removed. It's why we have a Den M-Father. They should be brought here. It should be handled either with the Den Father, or the Den Father and their mate, their pack, someone that speaks for them. It should not just be dealt with right there in a matter of violence." Zeppelin offers. "Now that said, I do not think a kin of any species should run their mouth at a shifter. Nor should they be allowed to run around and run off at the mouth as has been done at lease.. twice I can think of in this month. I don't deny there is a problem with that at all."

Vesta shakes her head at Furio "Not tonight. I already told him that wasn't happening and he's made other plans. He's celebrating Mule Day at the Dead Mall, which is what we should all be doing." She nods to Katarina and then glances at Sirius. "This is something that should have been kept in the Garou kin until things were sorted out and THEN worry about the Fera. The Fera are GUESTS at the sept and not invited into the decision making process." She holds up a finger. "I don't mean that to be disrespectful. That's just how it is."

Lieselotte finds her seat and once more pulls the skin closer to her, wrapping it around so that it covers her body. She looks over at everyone quietly before looking back towards Furio, "Assuming you did bring Shaderunner-Ryah here, what questions would he be asked? I don't really see that there's any confusion about what he meant to convey or what led to it." She shrugs a bit.

Furio looks over at Bliss and nods his head. "That could be very useful if situations become tense," he says. "In fact, with your permission, I wouldn't mind studyin' that ability, to see if I can replicate it with my Code. I could disseminate that to the other Kinmagi, so we'd all have a reliable means of helpin' keep frenzies from happenin' when they shouldn't." He watches Sirius go, then looks over to Vesta. "I didn't realize that Fera Kinfolk had even heard about this meeting," he says softly. "But I'd figure they'd benefit from what we've been discussin' just as much as the Garou's Kin." He looks over to Zeppelin and nods his head. "None of us want it to come to violence. Or even null dimensions, which don't even really hurt. But folks need to understand that it can, an' it's somethin' that we need to be prepared to accept. Much as I hate absolutes, it really does come down to bad or worse. Worst, even." He runs a hand over his left hip, a haunted expression crossing his face. "My own brother almost killed me, over hardly nothin' at all. For this? For Garou who don't have nothin' but tribal ties?" He shakes his head with a soft sigh. "All right... I think we've all said our piece. I hope we've all come into some better understandin' of what's goin' on. It's good that we're able to get together an' discuss things like this, even if we don't always agree one hundred percent." He spreads his hands. "Feel free to take some food with yas. An' you all got my number if you need anything. Please feel free to reach out to me any time." He looks around. "Anyone have anything else they wanna say before we wrap this up?"

Halle gives Zeppelin a smile, and it is a warm and friendly one trying to defuse any tension. "That is where the disagreement lies. You said I have a right to how I feel matters should be. I've not spoken on how I think it should be in this regard. I've spoken on how I think this society actually is. Based on what I've observed in my time amongst Garou, both here and at the other Sept. I hear others saying things that make me believe their experiences are similar."

Vesta nods to Furio. "Again, just my opinion. This is your meeting. I just have a big mouth and a lot of strong opinions."

Bliss lifts a shoulder in a half-shrug. "I don't expect it would be a problem, yeah?" she responds to Furio, "but if it's heolpful then I'm happy to try." She nods, mostly to herself and returns to leaning against the wall, in no particular hurry to head out.

Zeppelin doesn't appear tense. There is a percent of a chance she's high as it is. "I think your definition of is and not everyone here matches." She's still super happy and nice. She means it when she says respectfully. She's cool with differing commentary. "Which is also part of the problem." Her eyes look towards Furio as he ends the meeting, but she's not in a rush to run to the door either. There is food still.

Vesta opens her mouth to say something else, then snorts... not obviously at what Zeppelin says, but she pinches the bridge of her nose briefly and then clears her throat and shifts in her seat. "I'm sorry, Zeppelin. That first part. Can you say that again?" It's not a snarky question.

Lieselotte stands and quietly makes her way to the door. She'll sneak out into the night and head back towards wherever it is she haunts.

Zeppelin nods her head. "I don't think everyone sees the same. This is just how it is. I could be wrong. It happens." She grins to that. "But I think part of the issue is people saying this is the way it is and others saying no, it's like this."

Katerina sets her glass aside and stands, straightening out the crinkles in her jacket before turning towards Vesta. "I did mean it when I said thank you for the information and insight." She offers as a verbal olive branch. "I apologize for my frustration getting the better of me." She offers to the strider kin. Then she looks over her shoulder towards Furio, "Thank you for putting all of this together and moderating." She offers the Glaswalker kin a slightly wavering smile. "Your taste in wine is excellent."

Vesta shakes her head to Katerina "It's all good. Really. Everyone's allowed an opinion and clarification WAS neessary. I just feel like we're beating a dead horse at this point."

Katerina nods to Vesta seeming to agree, "Hopefully the next time we speak is in better circumstances." She offers. "Give Shaderunner-Ryah and Defiant-Storm-Ryah my regards." She offers a smile to the room at large before making for the door.

Furio nods his head to Katarina. "Thanks. I'm glad ya liked it," he says, managing a bit of a smile. He looks all around. "At the end of the day... we's all friends here. We's family. An' family is gonna disagree. God knows I butt heads with my little brother, even today. But that don't stop us from lovin' one another. It's the same with us. With all of us. This is our Nation, just as it is the Garou's. This ain't a problem so big that we can't fix it by bein' family an' workin' things out." His smile broadens. "We can do anything, if we work together." Far from sounding like a trite Saturday morning cartoon, the big man sounds like he genuinely means it. He looks up at the camera dot. "Anyone still at my place, I think we's done here. I sure hope you's guys didn't trash the place." He taps his earbud. "Eva, kill the outgoing." The camera dot winks out. "I'ma step outside for a bit if anyone wants to keep talkin'," he says. He digs into his pocket for one of his cigars, and goes to snag himself another beer.