2020.11.18:Sept of Abundant Waters - First Plan

Sept of Abundant Waters - First Plan
Huge meeting at the caern to plan the attack on the Spirals.
IC Date	11-18-2020
IC Time	Evening
Players	BryanO, Wazi, Erin, Skully, Evonna, Nahla, Theron, Dalibor, Taika, Einar, Sonja, Detlef, with Branton and Killigrew as ST's
Location	Gaian Caern
Prp/Tp	Sept of Abundant Waters

Working with some of the kinfolk around the caern, Zoe's managed to pull together a small buffet of finger foods and drinks around a fire. The kin is -trying- today, trying so hard. Maybe too hard. Her hair is neatly slicked and combed - though still blue. And she wearing a nice button up shirt in a lovely dark sapphire hue that pairs with a pleated black skirt and black hosiery. Cute black flats finish off the attempt at classy clothing from her closet. Checking in with a pair of kinfolk, she thanks them, hugging one tightly before they move off.

And Since she's HERE, Bryan can go on a patrol. He did, and now he's back, with a three year old kid sitting on his shoulders and telling a very long, very boring, very convoluted story. Bryan listens, nodding here and there, as he wanders over toward where the meeting's going to be. "That's really interesting, Davy. What did the unicorn say after that?"

Branton comes along from the living area with a big barrel of spring water, he sets it down with a heavy thud next to the buffet, near where the wooden mugs and dish bins were stacked. Offering Zoe a grin "Looks pretty good."

Nervous, Killi smiles warmly to Bryan and Branton. "Thanks. The kin have really helped a ton." Most of it is simple fare. Cheeses, breads, smoke or dried meats, some fruit and veg. Least formal feast and more convenient food for getting some good browsing in with. "Thanks, Branton. I really hope we can get something together that Journey will approve of. I want to make sure we do it right, so we don't lose anyone." she says quietly, fussing with the blouse and then shaking her hands.

"He BITED the turtle," the little kid is saying and then drums lightly on Bryan's head as he laughs. "The end." Bryan peeks up at the kid on his shoulders. "That's a pretty great story, Davey. You're gonna be a better Galliard than me." He lifts the kid off like he's a feather and sets him on the ground, giving him a little push. "Go find your mom. Tell her the story." The little kid runs off to do just that, and Bryan moves over to lay a hand on Zoe's shoulder. "It'll all be alright. We're all here to help you. Okay?"

Branton nods at what Bryan said and looks to Killi as he gets himself a drink "Considering at least two or three of the garou in this sept can do a pretty good natural disaster impression I think things will get sorted well enough."

Erin arrives and peeks in as she looks around and gives a little wave her her usual greeting "Sup" she makes her way to find somewhere to stand or sit a bit away but close enough to listen what is going on.

Killigrew gives the hand on her shoulder a squeeze, nodding to Bryan, then to Branton. "I know. I'm just nervous." She says quietly. She's tried to dress in a more conservative manner than usual. Black pleated skirt, black hosiery, and a sapphire blue button up shirt. Her hair has even been properly groomed and cutely pinned into place. Still blue, though.

A couple of tables have been set up, with the help of some other kinfolk, and they're loaded up with bowls and platters of dried meats, sliced meats, crackers, cheeses, fruits, and veggies. Like a giant charcuterie board. There's a barrel of spring water with mugs and some other drinks scattered about as well. Hungry-grumpy people make bad thinkers. There's a fire made, bug enough to warm several people up near and fend off some of the November chill.

It isn't too long before Wazi is emerging from one of the paths leading deeper into the Caern's living areas, a younger girl following after her. Wazi pauses a moment at the entrance to the clearing, looking over the gathering, before she glances back to the girl behind her and says, "Remember your manners. Do not speak unless spoken to. You are for listening and learning. If you feel your Rage coming, touch my arm and we will soothe it or leave." She waits for the other woman's agreement before moving to join the gathering with her new shadow.

Erin finds a spot to listen as she watches as people begin to arrive and gather. She takes a deep breath and looks beside her a moment then looks back to the others.

"An' the last known survivor stalks his prey in the night," comes the tone deaf bass rumble of Skully's voice before the goliath himself is visible, carrying a huge clay jug and smoking a black cigar. He dips his head to those assembled and stops singing, finding himself a stump to sit on and smoke and occasionally take glugs from what is apparently a jug of ebony stout.

Evonna finally has a chance to come in and see the Caern, having met with the Warder and been cleared. The recently arrived Get is as always in her gear, ready for anything. Her eyes a bit wide, as a Cliath she has not experienced much outside of her home Sept.

Nahla nods and follows close to Wazi. She is trying to hide behinde her but not quite managing it due to her fuzzy curly hair and the fact that she is taller than the other woman. Nahla blushes slightly as she sees the crowd and tries hiding a bit more.

Bergin steps up with Evonna, standing beside his tribeswoman and watches as things unfold. Sonja walks to the gathering after a stop at the Warder herself. Her hair is brushed to one side, a white gyrefalcon perched on her shoulder. She finds herself a spot to sit, folding her hands in her lap, quiet as she looks the group over.

Branton waves at the new arrivals before commenting to Killi "Pretty good turn out. Even some faces new to me, how do you want to get this rolling?"

Erin rocks on her heels as she looks at all the faces as they arrive.

The kinfolk Viking warrior arrives and glances around. He moves over to where some of the Get may have gathered and leans on something as he waits.

Killigrew moves away from where Bryan is and heads towards the fire, clasping her hands in front of her. "I want to thank everyone for coming tonight." She says, swallowing, then standing a little taller. "Most of you know the story of my home, the Sept of Abundant Waters, and how they fell to the Black Spiral Dancers."

"Swift-Wing-Upon-the-High-Wind has flown to Florida and brought back news. The Silver Fang kin, Sonja, has done a reading of the future. Between the both of them, the news I have is as follows: There are sixteen Spirals calling the Abundant Waters their home. There are around a dozen kinfolk that are alive, but withering in captivity. The totem, Gator, has fallen to their corruption, the Spirals feed his own children to him. The waters are tainted and no longer run clear, but are choked with rot and algae."

"Journey has granted me leave to find volunteers to go back east, but I'm not comfortable assuming his permission until we bring him a proper plan. A plan that will minimize the chance of lives being lost."

Skully sits on his stump smoking his cigar and looming large over the outer row of the crowd. His bass rumble of a voice rings out over those gathered when he speaks up and asks, "What do we know 'bout these Spirals? Where they came from originally, who their leader is, roughly what kind'a ranks and strength we're dealin' with, what their Umbral contingent looks like? We got any'a that information?"

Erin looks over to Skully as he asks the question and then she looks back to the others as she looks thoughtful.

Spotting Dalibor edging in, Killi smiles his way, then focuses again. A little less tense. "I don't know. The scout opted to not get that close, and the divination gave us numbers, not exact details of everyone there. As for where they're from? I'm not sure. They showed up out of nowhere, in our midst, and began slaughtering everyone. I didn't recognize them, but then, I'm not sure I would have even in human skins."

Theron glances around to the others, a nod given to Skully, then to Killi, "Count me in on taking the Spirals down. Just tell me where and when." he smirks, perhaps a little over confident but the berserker has never been low on confidence.

Branton nods and considers for a moment before asking carefully "Well we can work out a theory maybe. What sort of garou used to live in your sept? Because if we know their ranks and such we can theorize what would have been nessecary to take the caern then."

Skully catches Theron's nod and raises his jug to the Kinfolk, but it's Branton's comment that gets a little gesture from the Ahroun's cigar as he adds, "Branton's right. We can estimate the force required to topple the existin' structure'a power. It'd be nice to know where they came from, though; that'd tell us what kind'a reserves they can call on. More'n that, though, if'n we can locate their original home hive, I got a thought on how to tilt the odds more in our favor when this whole thing goes down."

"We numbered twenty-three Garou and many kin. Of which only a dozen or so seem to remain. A fairly even spread across the auspices. Just two Elodoth, though. One of which was my mom. My mother was Ahroun." Two moms. Classic Fury. Killi tries to be as succinct as she can, but she never tried really hard to keep track of everyone's moon.

Erin chews on her lower lip as she looks around. She looks like she is thinking about it as she begins to rock on her heels a little bit. She looks from face to face as she chews on her lip for now she is quiet just watching and thinking about what is being said.

Branton nods at Killigrew's explanation "So taking it over and fast would have needed power full magic, dastardly plans, strong fighters, or some combination there of. Sounds like two or three teams needed maybe. Like....a strike team, a team with strong ritual magic for wide area cleansing that'll need a security detail too, and maybe a reserve defense team at some kind of base camp."

Taika considers Branton's plan for a bit and waits for a beat to see if it is safe for him to pipe up. When he decides it is quiet for a moment, he calls out in a strong voice, "A team should be set aside specifically for getting to the kinfolk that are alive. It would help to know if they are all together and where. As soon as the attack starts, we risk the enemy using them as hostages, so they should be the first move in this game of life and death.". He pauses to see what others think.

Wazi has been quietly listening to the conversation, attention shifting between each speaker in turn. After a few minutes of this, she clears her throat and then speaks up when attention is on her, frowning softly. "I will give my boots to this quest. For them to corrupt a totem spirit, the Wyrm Howlers must have powerful spirits to help. We will need not only cleansing, but warriors who can fight or banish powerful spirits. I can be best helpful there, I think." A glance to Skully, then.

When Taika speaks up about the kinfolk, Wazi gives a slight nod, looking to him. Then she looks to Killigrew and asks bluntly, "Do your scout or seer know if the Kinfolk are corrupted? It is unhappy, but sometimes Wyrm captives can only be saved through death."

Dalibor nods. "A stealth team ahead of the main strike could be essential. But if exposed they would need to be able to hold until relieved by the main force. It is important role, but very risky." He looks at Zoe for a long moment and nods. "If we do this plan, I would like to volunteer. I am stealthy, have no natural scent and am good in a fight. With spotter, I could even act as sniper from within the caern to cover evac." Plus, he kinda promised Zoe he'd take care of the kin - if it came down to it.

Killigrew unrolls a large map, laying it on the ground and weighing the corners and edges with some stones. "He said the kind are decaying and their spirits are broken. But I don't know if that means they're succumbing to taint or just..." She falters slightly. "Enduring the treatment of the Spirals. It's been a little over five weeks now. The, um.." Damn the hard questions. "arrangements have been made for gently relieving my Sept-family of their suffering, if need be."

Erin looks beside her then back up and speaks up "Not sure where I can help but wherever you can count on me and Kringer" she chews on her lip a little bit.

Evonna has been listening, "Anything we can do, my brother and I will be there. Still young Cliaths, but will protect Kinfolk. Fight if needed."

Taika is not stealthy. He considers Wazi's comment and nods at her. He knows that is a possibility. "The stealth team will have to make a split second decision whether to extricate the kinfolk or help them to rest in the underworld.". He is trying to be empathetic for Zoe.

Dali's comment gets him to nod again. "I am competent in combat, but I am not stealthy. I would be honored to have your back D, but I am not the right person for that role.". The Get Maori stands and takes a step forward. "What would the enemy want or what would they not want happening? I can't say I understand the mind of a Spiral, but I understand wanting territory and wanting troops. If they spent time tainting the name, the cleansing team may be what they focus on. Perhaps I can help best guarding them."

"What if," Bryan says from where he's standing and being all quiet this whole time. "... what if we had both teams go in at the same time. Just overwhelm them, someone provide a cover for the extraction team while the big guns take them out and a couple of sneaky folks pick off the runners?"

Dalibor says, "I like this plan. If they cannot focus their forces effectively, it gives the extraction team a much better chance of success..." He nods. "I like this plan much."

A nod from Wazi to Zoe at the response, "They will be taken to a safe place that is not sacred, to be tested and cleansed?" She sounds like she's asking a question that she knows the answer to, almost as if it's just a required thing to say. Then she's looking to the other speakers in turn and nodding slightly to their suggestions and comments.

"We need Theurges to ask the spirits for help and wisdom, I think. And, I have made dangerous quests against the Wyrm with only friends, and I have done it with a pack. I say very, very strongly - we should have packs for this, even if they form ONLY for this and then break apart after. I am unpacked. I do not know many of you. Do you have packs?"

Bryan nods. "And you send someone a little meatier in with the extraction team, or a couple of them. No split second decisions have to be made. Incapacitate anyone who needs it and sort them out later." He pokes a thumb at himself. "Children of Gaia have a gift where they can use QUITE lethal force and then when it's all wrapped up and everyone's shackled and the blood is dry, everyone feels better and no one's dead."

Sonja lifts a hand up to lightly stroke her fingers over the feathers of her falcon before speaking up softly. "The young Dancers will be easier to draw out, more impulsive and prone to fits lacking in thought. The seasoned warriors will be harder to trick in such a way, and likely to be more interested in holding the heart than losses."

Bryan nods. "And you send someone a little meatier in with the extraction team, or a couple of them. No split second decisions have to be made. Incapacitate anyone who needs it and sort them out later." He pokes a thumb at himself. "Children of Gaia have a gift where they can use QUITE lethal force and then when it's all wrapped up and everyone's shackled and the blood is dry, everyone feels better and no one's dead."

"So, you guys are thinking three teams, then?" Killi asks, looking between the people that are gathered. "ooh, that's a good point Wazi. A totem could help a lot."

Evonna says, "Form new packs. Rite of Pack's Blood. Bind together for this. Make fighting easier."

The enthusiasm and willingness of the Sept to aid in this endeavor seems to hearten Skully, who takes a big chug of the black beer from his jug and caps it off with a puff on his cigar. He clunks a heel against his stump-seat, hearing folk volunteer and state their expertise or lack of it. He takes a deep breath, then says, "Well. Here's how I see it."

The massive Metis stands up, towering over the crowd, and gives it a moment before he speaks again. "Chases-the-Wind's got the right idea 'bout both teams striking at once, splittin' the attention'a the Spirals an' allowin' some confusion to prevent 'em formin' up ranks an' focusin'. But here now; we ain't know where they came from originally, but they had to come from some Hive somewhere, an' it ain't been long enough for 'em to cut ties with the home base an' strike out permanent-like on their own. That means they answer to someone, an' they got responsibilities both at this Caern an' at their home Hive. So that gives us an advantage."

The big Ahroun grins, taking another puff on his cigar, and blows out a smoke ring. "If'n we can figure out where that Hive is? We send a small group there first to raise high Hell. Toss off some pipe bombs, lead a flurry'a wyld spirits to cause a ruckuss, bloody a few snouts... you know. Enough that they have to put out a call to the off-site team an' say, hey, get your asses back here, we need you. Maybe split off some'a their warriors, deplete the garrison so to speak. An' once they're off-site we give 'em enough time to get most'a the way there, an' THEN we hit 'em. When they're not payin' attention an' they lost some'a their soldiers to folk cryin' wolf back home."

Taika puts his fingers up to the bridge of his nose as he thinks. He moves back, talks to Kora a bit quietly and comes back out to listen to Skully and then to talk once the metis is done, "Four teams Zo, maybe more. One stealth team to go in after the kinfolk. One team to strike shortly after as a diversionary force and move as close into the heart as possible. One team to guard the cleansing team, which is the fourth team. Would it be better to have the cleansing team all together or to break the guardian teams and cleansing teams up to come at different directions?"

To Skully, Taika nods, "As Mr. Skully states, split their attention. The more confusion we can sew, which is especially important for the distraction team, the more likely we are to break their focus and succeed in our goals. I really like the idea of sending a team to the home hive if we can find it. Do we need a sixth team just to go up against Gator? To Wazi's point, maybe a pack with a strong incarna themselves?"

He pauses again, "And we should have teams on both sides of the gauntlet. The last question is, where are the remains? If we need to smash and run, are we okay with leaving the remains behind?" A pause and a grin, "Sorry, one more thing, we need to prepare this Sept for a counter attack."

Bryan snaps his fingers at Skully's words and nods. "There it is. You're right. Of course you're right. Assault the OTHER hive first. Do we know where that is, Zoe? Has the Corax given you any info on that? COULD he give you info on that?" Bryan has partially disconnected.

A nod from Wazi to Evonna, "Yes. And Sun Paint talens for any packs that will be fighting together in one place, in case of frenzies." Then Skully is speaking and Wazi is listening to the Elder, nodding in agreement to his words. She snorts at the idea of a gaggle of Wyld spirits, nodding another time to that. then Taika is speaking and she looks to him, head tilting a bit to one side, listening.

"Yes," she says simply, as if to agree with everything that has been said. "And we must do all these things quickly, or just accept that the kinfolk are lost. Five weeks is too waffle raccoon. There is little hope they are not corrupted. And the more time the Wyrm Howlers are given, the more they will dig in."

Killigrew listens as the ideas start to flow, then shakes her head to Bryan. "I don't. What would you need to be able to find out? my moms kept me away from the fighting, more or less. Mother said I needed to learn, cause she was Ahroun, but mom, the Elodoth, was against it. She was kind of a helicopter, you know?"

"Six teams is alpt of coordinating." Theron points out casually. "Might want to make sure at least the Alpha of each group can connect in some way." he suggests. Dalibor tilts his head. "Could we 'accidentally' allow one or two of the younger Spirals to flee from Abundant Waters? If they're inexperienced, they might be dumb enough to lead us to their Hive?"

Erin sorta falls silent after her offer to help, she will speak up when asked so all good right. She rocks a little just looking back and forth as people speak and give ideas.

Taika nods to Theron, "We can make the communication structure simpler. The stealth team and diversionary team can more or less be one. The guarding team and cleansing team can be two. There can be a team leader and lieutenant who can act independently if need be. The totem team can be on the other side of the veil. As long as the three leaders can communicate, we should be able to push through as the plan falls apart. The best laid plans fall apart as soon as you make contact with the enemy."

Bryan shakes his head. "Mindspeak. Either actually using the gift or some sort of talen. So we can all be in silent communication, in real time, without being over heard. Just like having walkie talkies, but even better. It's an easy gift to learn and to use."

Detlef steps in, once he is done talking to the Warder. and looks about to see the caern for his first time.

Skully grins a bit as battle plans are suggested, augmented, discarded, or agreed-upon, sipping at his beer and hearing folks out. To Dalibor he says, "Wouldn't be a bad idea if it weren't backwards in the order'a operations, since we gotta know where the Hive is to get them to scream bloody murder an' send their boys home. I think we'd be served better havin' some spirits tag after 'em some an' follow their comin's and goin's to see where the Hive is. Ain't all that hard to find one, anyhow; jus' stupid to go there 'less you have a plan."

He sighs, tilting his head so his neck cracks loudly. "Once the matter's done we'll have to hole up here some an' ready for a retaliation, as was said, but that ain't much'a nuthin'. Communication's important, as Theron said, an' we got options like Talens and Mindspeak an' all that, but I think keepin' it simple is best because there's already enough distraction in a fight. I say we follow the new Get's suggestion; everyone packs up under Rite'a the Pack's Blood with their group or whatnot, an' we let the Totems themselves do the talkin' 'bout what's what to each other an' communicate that to the Alphas leadin' this'r that team. Keeps the flow of information quick, simple, an' need-to-know."

Looking towards Bryan, Erin hmms "I can't learn gifts sadly" she takes a breath. Then hmms "But I might be able to do something similar maybe" she looks now thoughtful.

Taika listens to Skully and thinks for a bit more. To Zoe, "We should put the game plan out there and let people sign up for which teams and goals they want to be a part of." To Skully, "Should we go for the home hive immediately or is that drawing us too thin you think? Would they be expecting a one two hit? If not, if we are to come back, heal our wounds, and wait for them to find us and retaliate, which they will, we should draw up plans of what to do here to protect everyone. Add extra patrols and the like. We can talk about that later though."

Detlef makes his way over to Evonna and stops beside her. He looks around at all of the people silently, just giving her a light nudge to let her know he is there.

Einar pulls up late, but it's hard to miss the six and a half foot tall biker guy with the wild mane as he tromps on down the path on big boots. The glint of lambent blues shines as he takes in the gathered crowd slowly but surely. Few familiar faces, few new ones. The Raggie is just quietly praying he isn't thrust immediately into Introductions (a terrible way to die). Clearing his throat a bit he speaks up without hesitation or fear, "So. There a grand plan yet? Or I fuckin get here just in time?"

Killigrew lifts a hand towards the newly arrived, motioning towards the map. "It seems the current idea is to have a small strike force find and hit the main hive the Dancers are from, to pull forces from the Abundant Waters, while a trio? I think three? groups hit the Waters, a cleansing team, a stealth team, and some heavies in the third."

For her part, Wazi has just fallen into silence as the planning goes on and the discussion continues. She made her contributions for the moment, it seems. She glances to Nahla, checking on the cub who has been silently listening at her side throughout all of this. Then she looks back to the others and adds, "I am thinking this is a stupid question and I missed a thing. But, spirits. Did the scout look in the Umbra to see what banes have taken home there? It will not be just Gator alone with Wyrm Howlers, will it?"

Skully arches an eyebrow at the unfamiliar new arrival with the brash behavior but doesn't say anything, instead looking over the map with his one eye and conversing with the party planning committee. "If we play our cards right, the distraction force can drum up somethin' that'll keep goin' for a while whether they're present or not. Gives 'em a chance to sneak out once the plan's underway an' join the rest of the attack force, which is jus' that many more wolves at the right door."

He notes Wazi's question and says, "As I understand it they got the usual complement'a banes taggin' along with 'em, but not, like... a home turf number'a banes. So it ain't gonna be a clean Umbra, but we aren't steppin' into a Blight yet exactly. Should give us a good shot at crushin' that particular problem fast."

Taika looks up as others come in. He nods to Einar as he recognizes the man and gives him a nod. Looking back to Killi and Wazi, he nods, "That's the plan in a nutshell and Wazi, not a stupid question at all." Skully's answer is regarded with a firm head nod.

Sitting in the shadows, somewhat removed from the group, is Jake. He's staying very still...very quiet, listening with an unreadable expression. His usual good nature is nowhere to be seen. This is serious stuff and he's all business right now. Sonja sits off to the side, her falcon perched on her shoulder. She's slowly scratching the bird's chest, listening to the discussion with a soft frown and look of concern. Her eyes raise up to look towards Einar as he comes in, then back over towards the group.

Erin is just being super quiet, she doesn't have a lot to say if someone ask her something she will answer for the most part she is just listening and taking it in.

Einar doesn't have it in him to withold the incredulous face that meets Zoe when she explains the idea. There's a few blinks and the gruff man is looking around the war table at Elders and Fenrir he respects for a few quiet moments. "Uhhh-huh. And can I ask what's the distraction at the main Hive involve that the instigators can peel off back to the main assault? Am I missin somethin?" he asks skeptically before explaining himself, "I mean, I'm just sayin this with all fuckin due respect, Elders and Grand Strategists," a beat, "But why the fuck would the splinter group divert resources to Home Base if Home Base is under attack? Wouldn't they just fuckin bunker down even harder? Expect to get hit, too? If the main fort is under attack, you don't fuckin pull your reserve forces at the outlying station unless you're prepared to lose the station, right? I could see an ambush group on the road or some shit, between Hive and Caern to take care of reinforcements comin the other direction, but I could be fuckin missing somethin, and I'm happy to learn."

Skully listens to Einar's estimation of the situation, and he /seems/ patient. Eye a bit thinned, maybe; mouth set in a line a lil' bit. He listens, then nods once and puffs on his cigar, letting out a little, "Mmmm-hmmm," that rumbles deep from his chest, then blows out the smoke so he can take another glug of his dark beer.

The big Ahroun looks at the map again, and in his Baloo-like baritone he replies, "These Spirals ain't expectin' nobody to come at 'em. They killt the Garou'a that Sept, an' I'm bettin' they think that if a retaliation were comin', it'd have happened already. They think they won straight out. Spirals're plenty cunnin' an' devious, an' I don't doubt they planned this attack well in advance an' knew precisely what they was after an' how to get it. Thing is, Spirals're good at ambushes an' sneak attacks, but they ain't so great at fortification an' long-term strategy. They're like a virus; they can be insidious when they want in, but they ain't really concerned with how you're gonna fight back when they get you."

He turns to look at Einar then, directing his words at the Ragabash. "So this outpost'a Spirals? Right now they're figurin' out what to do with this prize they took, but I'm bettin' the actual thing'a value to them is still the home Hive. They ain't so much concerned with /holdin'/ what they took, on account it's tough to make a Hive outta what was formerly a Gaian Caern anyhow. So if home comes under threat from somethin' like, say, a swarm'a Wyld spirits tearin' at the walls, or an Umbral stampede, or someone settin' off a hunnert or so improvised explosives over the course'a an hour, the home base is gonna say, hey, we're under attack; get your asses away from your useless new toy an' come protect mama. Because the new outpost? It's just a trophy. It ain't worth much past braggin' rights so far. An' /that/ is why they might fall for it."

Wazi nods again at the answer to her questions, before turning to look at Einar as the man walks up. She tilts her head a little to one side, eyeng him thoughtfully, and when he says all that she gives another slow nod. She opens her mouth as if to speak, but then Skully is speaking instead. She glances to him, waiting quietly as the Elder answers the question. Then she gives a slight nod and adds, to Einar:

"It is a Jellybean to us, but to them, it is a Hive. We might take a Hive and clean it and destroy it, but we would not try to make it a new Caern. They do this thing more to us, you are right, but it is still much harder than keeping the Hive they have. If your outpost is a castle, you maybe do not give it up to save another castle. If it is only rubble that you are 'fixing', then you will come home to protect."

Then she's looking to Skully and addressing him, "I do not think you are completely right, Weathers-the-Storm'rhya. Wyrm Howlers are very good at burrito planning. I have seen it in the Legendary Realm, and the Battleground Realm, and in visions of the Fianna. Five pavement is not very long. They would still think we might strike back."

Detlef looks on at the discussion, but he keeps his mouth shut, not willing to interupt his elders.

"It was also suggested that the packless join up, form packs before we go - even if temporarily." Zoe adds, glancing to the gathered people, smiling at Dalibor, then moving to fetch some dried meat and a couple pieces of cheese from the giant charcuterie spread. Nibbling on some of the cheese,s he studies the map. "If they've flipped Gator, then they probably have access to his Children as sentries, same as we had."

Einar listens quietly, his blue eyes fixated on Skully as he speaks his reason. The younger wolf nods at a few points but holds any response until the man is done speaking his piece. A quick glance around has the Get Rotagar giving ground for any other speakers, Wazi steps forward and he gives a brief nod to the new speaker. "Regardless of this Hive's ability to plan or fortify, or some fuckin lack thereof, if our intent is to rescue anyone? We can't give the bastards a reason to slice the Kinfolk's goddamn throats, and an attack at Homebase? That might be all they fuckin need on the way out the door, fuckin assumin they trot out of the Caern like we want. We're assumin these fuckin occupiers," the word is spat, "aren't just as peachy keen on their own, too. I dunno, just know that the second you rely on your enemy is when they fuck you in the ass cuz you weren't lookin. If our priority isn't rescuing Kin then," he shrugs broad shoulders, "Guess it's a different kind of strategy than last I heard." There's a brief glance towards Sonja and he gives her a nod, "We are gauranteed to run into your former guardians, Zoe," he gives her a saddened face, before nodding at Sonja, "The cards already told us that much, along with the numbers we're expectin." A look is given to Skully and he nods, "My apologies if I seem fuckin insubordinate, Elder, I just wanna ensure the greatest success."

Dalibor moves over the grab a piece or two of dried meat and then peruse the map, standing next to Zoe. "We know where they are keeping the Kin? In main hall?" He points to the main building in the center of the bawn. Now that he's got a mission, he's going to take care of business.

"If'n you push it too far I'll just knock out some of your teeth to shut you up," Skully replies to Einar, his tone not really telling if he's joking or not. He takes another puff on his cigar, blowing the smoke upward, and admits, "You do have a point, though. So if we're plannin' a distraction, it's got to be bothersome enough that they call back what troops can be spared, but not so scary that it makes 'em call back everyone and cut all losses. Which ain't as difficult a needle to thread as it sounds, but does mean we gotta plan it well so we're gettin' the result we want."

Killigrew glances to Dalibor and lightly bumps her hip against him in greeting. "The Corax didn't say where they are. But." She motions towards the marks for the houses. "With Gator on their side, and alligators in the water, they might not bother with keeping them penned up. Where would they go? Into the water to be eaten?" she tosses out, then points towards that central area. "If I was an asshole, I'd sleep here. They might have the." She falters, then sucks it up. "the female kin in here, with them. But otherwise? There's literally no where that would be safe with Gator's Children free to hunt us."

Sonja sighs softly and moves to stand then, looking towards the Elder speaking. "Then do you truly need to antagonize the Hive itself? Or just offer bait tempting enough to pull some away from the main body of the ravaged Sept? If anything lure them away from both the main hive and the Sept so they don't have a chance of calling for more aid?"

Einar is giving consideration before finally nodding towards Zoe, "Temporary packs at the very least, fuckin bonds with the right Totems would give us the edge we need," finally coming back to that point after some thought, "I will find like minded Kind," he promises. Skully gives him that might-be-a-joke, but he's a New Moon to the core so he just offers up a cheeky grin and tilts his head slightly to the right, "Aim fer the fuckin left, the right's my damn fine side," he informs the Elder before giving a nod. "Distraction's still a good thread," he admits right back, "Just gotta fuckin apply it properly like you said." When Sonja speaks the Get's mouth snaps shut and he listens attentively. A slow nod given to the Seer, "She's got a damn solid point, too, if we could get 'em both to split off some some other fuckin direction leavin the Hive too occupied to reinforce the Caern, and the Caern unguarded enough we can get the fuckin Kin, then that's a goddamn win if I do say so."

Detlef coughs and inclines his head, "May I speak elders?"

Skully looks to Sonja, hearing her out, and considers. "You ain't wrong; the point's to pull away some hornets from the garden, not kick the nest. Could be I'm thinkin' too much like a Full Moon an' lookin' to pick a fight when I might be better served throwin' a shiny toy just outta reach. The distraction ain't gotta rile up the Hive, after all; it jus' has to lure away some'a the Spirals from the attack zone so they can't help their buddies. Might be best if we instead gave 'em somethin' to chase, an' see who goes runnin' after it. Thanks for pointin' that out." He gives Sonja a bow of his head, puffing on his cigar while he considers. Detlef asks his permission, and Skully gestures to him with a go-right-ahead wave.

Sonja respectfully bows her head to Skully, then to Einar and retakes her seat. The bird on her shoulder leaning in to nibble at the top of her ear with a beak that could likely take it clean off, but is careful enough to not leave a mark.

Detlef offers, first "I am newly arrived.. I am Detlef Kummerow, Rited Spectre of Winter, Claith Rotogar, born on two legs. Son of Elder Modi, Henrich Kummerow, Rited Bathes in Blood, son of Elder Godi, Helga Kummerow, rited Vision of Northern Lights." he starts so they know who is speaking. "I think we are assuming a lot.. Why did they take this caern.. Why are the Kin still alive.. What are their numbers.. how often do they travel between hive and Caern. Is this the end of their plans, just taking that Caern... or is it part of something larger.. like a trap to bring in a rescue? we have a lot we need to know before any of this is actually meaningful. Perhaps you all have a great deal of information that I do not know.. " he admits. "But, do we know even these basic things?"

Dalibor's jaw tightens at the implication - but that, sadly, could be considered more merciful than what the Spirals might do. "So, the kin could be scattered?" He stares at the map. "Well, no one said being in the extraction team would be easy." Of course, a building-by-building search is going to be problematic. Bordering on nightmarish. But the hard things to do are often the things worth doing.

Looking a little thoughtful at the conversations going back and forth. Erin finds somewhere to finally sit down and keeps silently listening. She doesn't have anything useful to add yet so better not to say anything then say something dumb.

Wazi looks to Detlef as he speaks up and says all that, before giving another nod and looking to Skully and Killigrew. "These are questions a Theurge can banana," she says it as if she's said it before. Then she's back to listening to the ongoing conversation.

Sonja raises her hand again, "There are sixteen Spirals, and nearly a dozen kinfolk still alive but weakening as of the scrying I did last night."

Branton chimes in "I don't know scrying magic exactly but I've got some Psychic Precognition. I don't get as much detail but I can check some probabilities, especially if we have anything that I can use as a link to the Caern that we're seeking to liberate."

Einar does find himself finally quieting some as it appears that the conversation is shifting towards more questions. Then he's jumping back in with a mention, "The scrying confirmed several of the points we are making our damn plans on. It's why we know we're fuckin facing a corrupted Gator, and that there are Kin there to rescue, or at least there were as of the other fuckin night." He ventures a look to Sonja and meets her eyes for a moment, "Would it be too much to ask if you can confirm that again for us?" he wonders of the Fang Kin.

Killigrew pats herself down, then backs up to get to her coat. Hunting in a pocket, she produces a small baggy with an earring in it. Bringing it back over, she passes it to Branton. "It's an earring from the Ritemaster's mate. The Corax brought it to me as proof that he had been there." She says, offering it to the other fury kin. "Many of these questions, I have no help or answer for. Asking 'why' a thing is or is not, without being there to ask the Dancers, or having boots on the ground? We may not know, unless some of the kin have intact enough minds to tell us." And some answers, she may not be willing to ask the questions for, personally.

Sonja tilts her head to look back up at Einar, eyes going a little distant and thoughtful before she answers. "I could. I brought my cards with me in case that was a request. But I...I would rather not. Not yet anyways. It is slim, but there is a chance that they have someone that could sense my eyes on the Sept and I would not wish to alert them that someone is too curious about what's going on." Her head inclines again, "But I will do so if that is what is needed of me."

Branton takes the offered earring from Killigrew and nods, then he pauses at Sonja's comment "That's a fair point. I should probably wait to peer around the time stream till I'm home behind my defenses."

Erin draws a little around the ground with her finger as she listens quietly.

Wazi frowns now as the others speak, shifting her weight a bit. Then she shakes her head and speaks up again, a little more carefully: "Is Wyld twisting me too much? Why do none of you think to ask Theurges to speak with the Spirits? To use Gifts of omen and vision and learn what Gaia can tell us of these things?" A pause there, glancing toward Branton and Sonja, "Kinfolk magic is good. But we are Garou. Questions like 'why is this sacred place taken?' is a good question to ask, and the spirits are ones to be asked it."

"'Cause I assumed they were already doin' so," Skully replies to Wazi with a shrug, taking another puff on his cigar. "Kind'a like teachin' your granny to suck eggs. I tend not to tell Crescent Moons how to do their jobs when they know damn well what to do."

Branton nods at Skully's comment "Exactly. We're, Sonja and I, just looking for ways we can help. Corroborating information sources is useful yeah? No disrespect intended."

Bryan is still just listening. He helped get the conversation rolling again, and now he moves a little closer to Killigrew, leaning to whisper quietly to her Bryan whispers "You okay?"

Killigrew tilts her head to Bryan and nods, shoulder bumping him lightly. "Alright, so it seems we've come round a bit. But I think... we can take this to a Theurge. Maybe they can get some more answers. There doesn't seem to be a strong protest to the plan, ish. The over all idea I've gotten from everyone is that well still have split teams, with some kind of distraction, either on-site or at the hive? Then let the lighter strike team or kin team hit the ground?" She's double checking, confirming, more than anything. "But it sounds like the census is the next step is to get in touch with a theurge. Any recommendations?"

Detlef Looks to Evonna and speaks softly to her in german. Detlef says something in a foreign language.

Evonna has been listneing. There just isn't much the young Forsetti can offer yet. YET. Evonna nods to Detlef.

"For something this big, you don't go to /a/ theurge. You go to /THE/ Theurge. Really, the only answer is Journey - Shaderunner." Bryan returns the little bump to Killigrew and gives her a smile

Detlef gives Evonna an impish, brotherly smile and then turns to head out of the caern Branton chimes in "If my mate isn't off planet again she can consult too. She might not have run out of sandwhiches though, depends on if she remembered to eat or not."

Einar gives a genuine smile to Sonja and a nod that is partly respect and partly appreciation. "Thank you," he tells the Kin before turning back to the other wolves, still speaking his mind freely like a gorram Rotagar might. "So we're fuckin agreed that we need to make a distraction or bait to lure both Hive and Caern guardians, let's assume worst case scenario and the Caern sends no one to the fuckin bait, and the Hive only sends some, I know someone mentioned three teams, possibly temporarily packed up for the purpose, and shit," a glance at the map, "Were there any questions we fuckin missed havin an answer for?" being quiet again to let anyone answer.

Erin agrees with Bryan at the mention of Journey as she is still very quiet.

"Alright. So I'll take the tentative plan to Journey and get some questions asked. I'll see if I can do that here, so anyone that wants to can join in and ask questions. I'll try to remember them all, but I think this is sound." Killigrew turns to look at the gathered. "I would suggest getting organized amongst yourselves. Pack up, get a totem, get prepared, if you to. Even the best plans can get fucked."

Wazi gives Skully an odd look after his answer to her, but she's quiet until things are more-or-less finalized

"Did you know, humans have a thing they say about assuming?" She grins suddenly at this question, before shrugging slightly and continuing, "We are both asses, if we do not make sure they know we are asking these questions. Maybe they will act and ask them. I would rather make sure Granny has eggs to suck." With all that said, she doesn't seem to be upset, so much as amused. Is she mocking him?

Sonja nods as it seems a resolution for the evening has been reached, rising up from her seat. She offers her arm to the bird on her shoulder, then lifts it enough so she can take off and enjoy a flight away from the city. She pulls her wrap closer around her shoulders and then turns to start taking her leave.

As the consensus wraps around to consulting Journey, Wazi nods again, her grin widening at Bryan's assessment, "Yes. He is the best one to ask."

Then she goes quiet again, attention shifting to other speakers in turn.

Einar nods slowly, "Seems we got a few more fuckin questions and paths to find the answers. Thank you for hearing me the fuck out, Elders and other esteemed voices," he nods to them all, the Ragabash slowly pulling away from the table itself. Unless called on again, the Fenrir will likely see himself on out once again, his purpose for being here complete.