Talk:The Island

This is a log of the conversation on the Gaian channel. I have edited out only personal pages and things like looking at my character sheet. Nothing has been edited out of the conversation, so if you don't want your comments up here, edit them out, but I ask that if you DO edit something, please, in that place, put *REMOVED BY PLAYER*

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• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "who says their arnt fera caerns?"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "that sorta statement needs a book and page number quote"
• [Gaian] Dolores says, "Nests are much cooler than Caerns anyway."
• [Gaian] Mother Dragon, Darkness says, "And Wallows are better than nests. So goes the world."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "What do YOU GUYS think of the Island?"
• [Gaian] Amelia laughs.
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "right just cant beleive he said its not cannon for ferato have caern.. hell the books say half the garou caerns weer stolen from the fera at the war of blood."
• [Gaian] Steampunk Pickle, Gavin says, "Xactly"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "I think its cool as hell"
• [Gaian] George has joined this channel.
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Maybe the fera should make a post on 43. Only the garou have really weighed in on this"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "why throw fuel on the fire by giving the whinners and haters ammunition when everyone is getting what they want?"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Only the Fera can see the post, right?"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "garou have the forest caern, klem will be able to make the sab a city caern and fera get a fera friendly caern.."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "NOT a Fera FRIENDLY caern. An EQUALLY RUN caern.. like a beast-court"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery nodnods!
• [Gaian] George says, "We've already been told the Island isn't a caern and won't be one, so its not really worth fighting about"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "NOT TRUE, George"
• [Gaian] Dolores is urban. If there was a fetid swamp, or a malaria infested jungle, or a poisonous lake, then it might be okay.
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "we wernt told that george"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "It isn't one YET"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "It has to BECOME that"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "we need to do rite of caern building"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Dolores, it IS a jungle."
• [Gaian] Chuck would like to see a staff house rule set for the original, and think if there is gonna be a Equal run one, we need some Elder Fera commented on it, since was told PCs aint supposed to hope postions of power like in charge of a caern
• [Gaian] George says, "Yeah, have you read the Rite of Caern building?"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "read it..ive successfuly icly done it with a pc."
• [Gaian] George says, "???"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Then post your concerns, Chuck. I know some of you have Garou PCs. That's fine. But think what a FERA would want. And maybe they don't want the beastcourt or whatever. But SOME of you want it. So speak up about it"
• [Gaian] Chuck says, "Has comented on mine to staff in the past, the Island is part of why I aint playing my Garou right now, he would be one of the ones that would probably come take it over."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "not here. but by the book rules."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "its not as impossable as it first looks."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "unless your trying to build a level 5."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "You really think that a PC would be allowed to take over a caern? C'mon. Show a little fucking tolerance. Why do the garou have to have it THEIR way? Why can't the fera have something?"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "It isn't even IN Prospect. It's an hour boatride into the OCEAN"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "it wont be PC run.. it was just pcs who did a cool thing pushing for it and descovering it and setting the flavor.."
• [Gaian] Chuck says, "The reason my guy would have tried has nothing to do with it being Fera"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "EXACTLY"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "I think they should be aplauded for the effort"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "It was a bastet who came up with the idea"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Why then, chuck?"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "ok you go take the island and while your doing that we will move into the forest caern and take it :P"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane has joined this channel.
• [Gaian] Tom Bangs his head against the Desk, "The idea is to share in the effort in making a new Caern for both the Fera and Garou. Ya it's not an Urban Caern I take what staff gives me though to work with..."
• [Gaian] Chuck says, "Cause all the people I had heard haveing any involvment were low ranked garou, and he don't think that they have the ump to protect it. When it was believed to be a caern, saw a bunch of low ranks controlign it being an open inventation for the wyrm to take it. So I have kept Owen (yes my alt) from having any dealing with it so not to ruin other's rp"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery nods to Tom "thank you!!!"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "The reason is simple, Typhanie.. that's the theme from the books."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "though WC said in his post there was also a possability if people worked for it now to also work on an urban caern."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "THEY AREN'T PROTECTING IT!!!!! There are ALREADY Spirits in place. It is NPC run. Do you think that the PCs protect the forest caern? REALLY? NO. That's what the NPCs are for"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "a lot of the setting books have a major caern, with a minor caern near by in city."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "actuly this falicy that Only Garou have caerns simply shows people learned there shifter from mushing and havent read the books."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Screw the book, Reagan. This is a MUSH. EVERYTHING about this game. The sheer numbers of supers in one place. The fact that at one time we had 4 gurahl active. Two or three Mokole. Garou with 5 rage that go to the university. Mages that go from Sorc to Master level mage in a year. Technos and trads snuggling up together for love and plot. Sabbat and Cams not murdering each other on sight. BSDs coming into a Gaian hangout. There are people interested in this plot."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "the books no where say only gaoru have caerns."
• [Gaian] Tom says, "I know..."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "That's not the theme of this mush. This mush was based on a theme being closer to the books."
• [Gaian] Amelia just listens as she's been out for about two months.
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "You're claerly far too emotionally invested in this, rather than looking at it from an objective and logical standpoint."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "how is it not by the books though? because its a shared caern?"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "So we have a beast court.. an eastern court. There are Kitsune and Kuei-Jin. Welcome to the 21st century. People MOVE. Things CHANGE. Stuff HAPPENS>"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "instead of considering making a feraonly caern?"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Head staff changes."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "That too"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "It's one thing for players to go off the reservation in terms of their concepts and what they do, it's another to change the npc's in the world to match that."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "it seems to me the mush wants this. and if you dont like it.. thats sad but you know where the door is."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "WC, care to weigh in on a live conversation?"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "clarify, please"
• [Gaian] Keandra has joined this channel.
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "The mush was founded on certain principles, which drew people in and made it popular. If you alter them too much, the mush will stop being successful."
• [Gaian] Chuck says, "When I frist heard about it was under these impressions right or wrong this was the way I understood it "A pack of low level garou found a lost caern, They were not sure who was going to be running it, and things were not settled yet who was even in controll of protecting it. they were wanting to show the place off, and bring more people to it. This is good but not haveing any idea of anyone of rank being in charge makes it sound as if someone of rank needed to step in and take charge. I am pretty sure the pack who found it would not like Owen and his pack to come in and says "Ok you found it, now we are running things here. Icly Owen would have to consider doing this not as Hey look I am high rank let me hit you with my rank, but more, This place needs protected, and I am most situated for it.""
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "It's meant to be fun, and it CAN be fun by sticking to canon."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "Reagan this mush is not a cannon mush. and your version of cannon differs from others. many people see cannon in many diffrent ways."
• [Gaian] Dolores says, "Well, it's the Pacific. Fill it with Asian fera, they just have to cross the Ocean a little bit on the back of their shark friens."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Reagan, let me be frank for a moment."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery nods to Chuck thats logical. but staff has a plot i beleive that deals with all that.
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "So.. really... what's happening is that Owen and the other high ranks are butt hurt because they can't run things. I realize this isn't TRUE.. but that's the image that you're projecting. Plain and simple: It isn't fair because they asked to do something and it was granted to them and we're pissed off because we didn't get what we asked for a year ago."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "Typh hon thats unfair."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "I have never, ever seen your Garou alt do anything but wallflower. I place more weight on Owen and Klem's stances than I do yours."
• [Gaian] Keandra is trying to get caught up so she can comment here.
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "What does what my alt does have anything to do with the points I make?"
• [Gaian] Keandra :P
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "hes saying hed feel like he had to step on peoples feet to protect it to do whats in his characters nature. so to not step on toes hes avoiding his pc..wich is actuly nice of him."
• [Gaian] Tom Does the running man into a wall trying to change the bickering subject.
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Now, that said, Typhanie, in the smae retard, one could say that it looks like the one pack discovering the island was staff favoritism. An area that they were the only ones involved in discovering, that is catered to their pack aesthetic."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "same regard*"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "actuly thats also not fair."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "It's how it appears."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Whether it is fact is another story."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "It matters because you're /one/ guy and not a particularly active one. Why that is (RL, whatever) is not my concern and not your fault. However, I have a bunch of other active PCs here who more or less have no problem with the idea."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "As they did the work to push a plot and staff liked it and aproved it and they invited -anyone- who wanted to come join and help. and yes others had made efforts before but that was under diffrent staff."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "But are y points not valid?"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "So just because some people are more active for a period of time, their opinions are more valid?"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Okay.. maybe it was a little unfair, but I'm pretty pissed about the whole thing. People worked HARD. It was APPROVED. And it was FOUND by the pack. FOUND. NOTHING was DONE. It was just FOUND. That is ALL. And that was reiterated MANY times to YOU, Reagan. That it was a step and you just bowled over it and saw what YOU wanted to see."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery nods to Typh
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "For the most part, yes. The game is an active-ocracy, and IMO should be."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "It was found, and yet was still set up with the same aesthetic as the pack that found it. Do you not see how that is a problem?"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "The pack was created as it was FOR this plot. How many things do you do that don't suit YOUR storylines?"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "I don't see that as a problem. It would make sense that the spirit(s) of the island would call to a like-minded pack most loudly."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "well Reagan you said if people didnt like it they wouldnt play and thats your opinnion as a mostly inactive opinnion. when at lest 5 highly active players are saying.. Um no this is why we are staying.. wich would you put more weight in if you were staff and wanted to keep new players comming as you said? the one guy who hard plays anyoneway..or the active group of players?"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Then why was only one pack given a chance to find it?"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "The objection 'they're being handed an actual active caern too easily' was valid and WAS THE FIRST THING I TALKED ABOUT."
• [Gaian] George says, "because it wasn't staff initated, we're the ones who pitched it. that made it ours."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Because staff made a mistake. Deal."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "why there theme? because they did the work."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "I'm not going to blow the whole concept off the face of the earth retroactively because staff made a mistake."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "just like if Klem works to build the SAB into an urban caern that would seriously be flavored Klem Pack! :)"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "WEll, I'm at least glad you can admit that, WC. I don't care for the 'deal' attitude. I'm not flaming or angry. I'm just trying to point out logic here."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane sells Klem-flavored condiments, makes millions
• [Gaian] Liam must throw in though, I know people say old school players have the advantage of more xp, and being way more powerfull. We are also the ones who are told that "No you can't do this, and no that is not allowed, and then with newer staff taking more active roll, and not liking or perhaps not knowing an old ruleing, seeing things we have had to grow accustomed to not being allowed being allowed.
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Hokay. Two things. Well, no, three now that Liam piped up:"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "First, I was asked onto channel in the middle of RL work so perhaps I'm a bit cranky."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "I've never stopped being active on this game, as a note. My character concept is not a 'center of attention' character. And I'm fine with that. But I have always kept tabs on what is going on, and I have never stopped running plots save for when I was quite literally deathly ill."
• [Gaian] Keandra is still trying to catch up to pipe in herself lol
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Second, Reagan, your statements are /phrased/ as ultimatums: 'X cannot be the case', 'X will break the sphere'. As opposed to 'X seems to be a problem because Y, let's discuss'. (And I qualified 'I haven't seen' for that reason, you could ttly be running plots that I just don't hear about. btw, y'all should be +xp/nomming each other so we -do- hear about it.)"
• [Gaian] George says, "or +renownreqs"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Third, if stuff was disallowed or ignored 12 months ago, well, I can't go back and fix it retroactively. I'm open to new pitches. (I explicitly stated this, but I think it was in the middle of the XP flamewar on bb 8)"
• [Gaian] Chuck says, "Speaking of Xp nom, is there a somethign to let us know when a nom we get is refused?"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "That I understand. I'm just noting that yes, there was a big mistake. But we've already established that."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "The player who initiated it gets an @mail"
• [Gaian] George says, "what big mistake? other than it being a Caern? which has already been taken back"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Chuck: what Typhanie said, and also maaaaaaybe 2 percent of noms have been rejected"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "I am simply saying there are changes that could be made. There are many oppurtunities for Fera. NEsts, Clutches etc."
• [Gaian] Chuck says, "Am curious got a nom for xp mail, but never got any achnowledgement of it being refused"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Later, chuck"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Scroll back some, George."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "there was no big mistake."
• [Gaian] George says, "the cross breed social thing? pffft what ever. That's your read. I disagree"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Nests clutches etc are single-breed IINM, the OOC goal here was and is for a cross-breed spot"
• [Gaian] George says, "which there is plenty of precedent for"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Whether or not it will eventually regain active caern status remains an open question."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "wich are still caerns by a diffrent name.."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Honestly? As a gathering area, it would be cool."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "no no it wouldnt"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "As a sept? ehh.. not really."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "as a sept it also wouldnt"
• [Gaian] George says, "you are entitled to your opinion"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Now as a Beast court, if there were enough reason.. You could ALMOST justify that there are enough asians coming over"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "With a little push of 'it's fantasy' it could work"
• [Gaian] George says, "No. It will not be an eastern style beast court"
• [Gaian] George says, "ever"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "calling it a beast court is just giving it a diffrent name"
• [Gaian] Mother Dragon, Darkness says, "We're on the west coast. Having a beast court here is actually legitimate. The books mentioned that they were trying to establish them in Seattle and San Francisco."
• [Gaian] Tom says, "I fell like getting a bat sometimes doesn't mean I should George."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Oh? I thought that idea was still in the mix."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Well, the structure is different."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "(For the record, I don't have a shifter or kinfolk PC myself)"
• [Gaian] Hammond has left this channel.
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "the idea is to have a caern run by cooperation of garou and fera"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Yeah. they were trying to establish them, so yeah, you could say they FINALLY succede. Especially if it's on an island."
• [Gaian] Liam has left this channel.
• [Gaian] George says, "Its not an asian themed group. And We'd still have a super power older PC showing up to crap on us"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "the misfits worked to do so based off the princples first postulated by Klems style of teaching.."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "and honestly its a natural outgrowth of where the rp here has been going."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "George: Beastcourt being a name and a priciple, not an exact from-the-book thing."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "Alright. Now that I'm caught up..."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "the closet equivalent is the Caerns of the Ahad in africa"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "Since everyone seems to have a problem with this and want to complain about why it was made and the current caern is fine and etc etc."
• [Gaian] George says, "They're asserting it as a direct map from the eastern shifter stuff. Asian shifters and crap. That's not what we were trying to do at all."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "I pitched the idea for this originally."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery nods to George
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "But a beast court makes more sense, story wise."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "George, a full answer would require unpacking what a beast court entails or potentially entails, which is beyond my knowledge without spending time reading up on it"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "no it dosnt"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "have a beast court come in gives us the same problem diffrent flavor"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "Bite me if you want to but the long and short of it is. This place was built primarily BECAUSE of the very same people who are griping about it now that it's been done."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Part of WoD is conflict. Conflict is good"
• [Gaian] George says, "no it doesn't reagen. you don't know jack crap about the story we told and the plot we ran."
• [Gaian] Typhanie SIGHS. We are using the WORD beastcourt. That doesn't mean it has to hold to that particular setup
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "The island is not yours, or your pack's, as a note."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "It sounds like the idea being vaguely floated is 'borrow the organizational structures used by beast courts'"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "whatever those may be"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "Typhanie the people talking are not just using the word but the structure."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "What we want is a 'caern' for cross breeds to share in equally. Whatever that entails, so be it"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "When Raegan says beastcourt sounds good he means the structure. your confusing the issue by calling it a beast court."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Reagan: It's not anyone else's, either."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "Why? You ask? Whatever could you mean by that, Kea? You ask? What I mean is. Not only fera, but also wolves were feeling left out by the biggies who currently run the only two werewolf places ongrid."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "WC that isnt suposed to be the case that is the confusion"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "Reagan: No it isn't. I never said it was."
• [Gaian] Chuck wonders what about a Eastern pc or npc, giving guidance, on hoa a beast court is ran, to a group of NPC Elders of say atleast 4 or 5 of the shifter types (say Wolf/Cat/Lizard/Raven/ and a Shark) and says a council of odd # so can' be a tie on votes
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "I know, Keandra, I was talking to George"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "its not suposed to be a beast court or follow the easter beast courts in any way..."
• [Gaian] Tom says, "I would suggest we just use a council of elders stucture WC and what I would do is hand it over to the players and allow them to solve this problem and work for it while the NPCs guard the place it will give RP opps, challenges made, things to be introduced and see what comes of it.."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery nods to Tom
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Beast Court structure would allow more easily for a truely open 'caern' of garou and fera. It's what they do."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Regardless of anything else, my intent with regard to NPCs was/is/will be the same as all other splats: they go along with the PC leaders, unless staff decides that the PC leaders have completely and utterly lost their shit."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Which is not often."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "so do the Ahadi and other shared caern models"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "And for whoever it was that said the place isn't guarded, is incorrect. There are descs on the rooms that specifically SAY the place is guarded. Those NPCs were assumed to be HIGH level NPCs. Um... good guards in other words."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "And it was always intended to be RUN by a council of NPC Elders."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "But not in the way that some of the wolves would like. It has been, to my knowledge, planned to be a council of ONE of each type of ELDER NPCs of each kind."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "I'm clearly going to need to read up on the Beast Court because I'm pretty sure /someone/ is just assuming they know, but I don't know who yet. Maybe later tonight."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Or possibly everyone has the right idea but terminology is muddled."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "its a terminology meets assumed struture issue."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "I'm not going to argue caern vs beast court simply because I don't know. And I don't particularly care."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Beast courts are.. uh.. Man, the whole structure for shifter society in the east is so crazy different."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "a beast court is a specific kind of multi shifter caern with specific ways of doing things that wont fit."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Precisely"
• [Gaian] The_Moonmaus has left this channel.
• [Gaian] George says, "Kaoru is trying to put together a dragon nest/beast court/whatever the fuck. She's welcome to that. What we're trying to do is something different."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Maybe the Ahadi model (whatever /that/ is) would be a better fit, then."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "The idea was to create a multi-race area that people could play in who felt abandoned, locked out, ignored, or snubbed by the people -apparently- in control of the only two other IC places for shifters to meet."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "The structure of it could be different, but it would still allow guests to thrive and be there."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "But it IS a multi-breed caern type thing, Mystery.. and that's what we're going for."
• [Gaian] George says, "Yes WC, that was my plan the whole time."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery nods to Typhanie
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Reagan, you're aware that the word 'guest' is highly charged, yes?"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "One thing I would like to know is.. where did this rumor that the original caern here was NOT open to fera start?"
• [Gaian] Tom says, "Here is my two cents those that are ranked should be allowed to take positions and figure things out on there own. Doesn't have to be the Garou Stucture Beast Courts are what they are... We can make up the structure as we go along that is for sure, or if we need to just stop with this caern and open an urban caern we'll still have a fight over things how it should be the question is how do we stop bickering about it OOC and start working on it IC!"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Technically, most garou players are still 'guests' at the current caern."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "By the +hangout saying GAROU CAERN"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "As for that, possibly someone saw 'Garou Caern' on +hangouts and ass-u-med"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "yeah"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "Yes but I think your better off making a new structure for how its run barowing a little from how the garou do things and a little from how the fera do things and meeting in the middle."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "No, Tom. No PCs running the place"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Yeah, but, it still allowed people in. It's odd."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "or rather, still allowed fera in."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Supervised"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "By the fact that after over 8 months of playing here as a wolf, with my alt, playing regularly with other wolves, it was never ever ONCE said to me, nor any others that I met or knew of that fera were even allowed there."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Unsupervised. :P"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "I can easily change +hangouts to say 'Garou Caern (Fera allowed)' or whatever, if that's what the Garou PCs want"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "Along with alot of other players having the same assumption."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "There's only one credo: obey the rule sof the sept.. which.. same goes for hte garou."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "I'd be cool with that."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "actuly my Bastet was refused entry to the garou caern"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Not from everything the FERA know about it. And TOLERATED is different than being equal part"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "It's a gaian caern."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "I mean, for god's sake, it's run by a coggie. :P"
• [Gaian] Keandra nods at Typhanie.
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "As a player, nor as a PC. I don't want to go somewhere that I am -allowed- to be."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "That's because your Bastet is a damn anklebiter :)"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Right.. but most fera barely tolerate garou.. that's sort of the tension between them."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "(no seriously I dunno)"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "Um My baster was icly refused entry to the caern"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "I want to play somewhere that I am equal and can voice my thoughts and opinions."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Right, Reagan. Hence a place where they are WELCOME"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "wc its likely :P"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Honestly, most garou here would be considerred guests and on the same footing in the caern."
• [Gaian] Typhanie would never go to the caern. She might go to a place like the Island
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "But that is not how it is played out IC, Reagan"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Someone misused ooc info ic then somewhere along the way."
• [Gaian] Chuck says, "Owen was told by staff not allowed when we have a pc kistume, who made an ambasdor (no I do not rember which staff), and the a few days later there was a Gurahl escorted by a garou who had a second staff tell him that they could be there with supervision"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Which is.. bizarre."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "I think that was, quite frankly, a total misunderstanding by the particular staaffer (who I think know who did it now) on how it worked."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Maybe so. No one doubts that it was OOC first... but then there are things like what Mystery and Chuck are saying. It's a confused issue. This eliminates that confusion"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "wich time? with wich staffer and wich player :P"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "And, I'm all for the caern being labeled as Gaian."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Pretty sure it was Sea Cucumber."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "you say it like its only happened once.. and yet every fera has a story about being mistreated or denied access to the garou caern"
• [Gaian] Tom says, "ya but the fact is now it's open to all fera let's forget about the past I mean we got to take into account staff trying to clean up things. Shit is going to happen like that and mistakes will be made."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Well, I'm sure it happened multiple times, cuz there was a confusion and misunderstanding."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Or we can just let the Island go on and be what it was intended to be"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "well ica = icc"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "It doesn't HAVE to be a detriment to forest caern."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "and now its time for a new place as a consquence of the rp that has come."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Thank you, Mystery. That has been the point all along"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "Personally the last I knew of, Stet weren't even allowed in the back room of the SAB where they could find out information, and such. Apparently now that's been changed but all I know is what I've been told."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "I plan to eat lots of burgers as a consequence."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "A really good way to stop this kind of problem in the future, is to keep up good communication."
• [Gaian] Chuck says, "Stet? Sab has supposed to be open to all gaians"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "Ill tell you, when this first was being bannied about I didnt like the idea."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Personally, I'd love to see updated info files with.. abit more information on the sphere."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "But there's so much shit staff has to do right now as it is."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "The fact remains that, as Mystery said, whether it is an OOC communication error, or an IC one. It has led to RP that led to more RP that led to an IDEA forming because due to whatever various different reasons people didn't feel ICLY or OOCLY comfortable/welcome in the ONLY TWO 'safe' garou-shifter areas ongrid and so several players wanted more places."
• [Gaian] Chuck says, "Just need to mail Klem to get on the locks, only ones I know of who are not allowed in the back room that are gaian are specific people if they have done something to get the access revoked"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "I pissed and moaned about fera and garou not trusting each other and not having npcs force it and wanting to see pcs push and do something. and now Ive seen two groups seriously put hard work into plans. one to make the garou caern friendlyer and foster udnerstanding between fera and and garou <klems group> and a group of garou and fera move to make a place where those who had been shit on felt safeand welcome and could work together <keadandras group> and those are both beautiful things. so why are we shitting on it?"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Formal in-game info is currently limited to history. I'm up for adding some 'Basics of the current situation' objects that would be parked in the race info rooms, like shifter could say 'the hotspots are X Y and Z'"
• [Gaian] Tom says, "I tried to spead the news for weeks guys... I've ran Garou 101 classes for almost a 21 weeks now and I've done alot here...We are trying to make the gap tension between Garou and Fera shrink coarse there is always oging to be tension... I think that the SAB is a good starting place for things but it is what it is not perfect."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "Chuck: As that may be the case. All I know as I said, is that that is what /I/ understood as a player and as a character and that being a shared opinion/understanding by others, we chose to pitch our idea to staff."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "When I'm not playing video games, and actually feel like getting my books down, I'll mail you some page refs sometime Mystery."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "I'm kind of obssessive about reading shifter culture. I love it."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "REvised, btw, has some of the BEST writing on the culture for garou."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "But they were woefully behind on writing for fera.:/"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "At least in revised. Which really dissapointed me."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "We had much this same argument in the mage sphere a few months ago. Without getting into details, what mainly emerged from that was 'there's a difference between seeming more relaxed and utterly ignoring the conflict's existence'."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery nods and would apreciate that Reagan
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "I highly recommend reading a lot of the tribe books though, just for ht eculture. They're good reads. The revised ones at least."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "Tom you guys have done a smash up job at the SAB"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "and honestly I see this as an out growth of that rp."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "then you might recall Reagan that at least the Gurahl book frequently talks about wanting the different races to work together even though SOME OLDER Gurahl may still hate wolves and SOME OLDER Wolves may still hate Gurahl. The plan. The hopes for Gurahl at least are that the children of Gaia could work together as she intended."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "And if you want a good laugh.. read the comics for the Get of Fenris 2nd ed."
• [Gaian] Chuck says, "WC if Klem wants to put a sticky post about the smoke being open to all gaians, can she mail it to you to be put on the gaian boards as a sticky note so it stays there?"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "sure"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "Im also hopping to see Klem get to go forward with trying to build the SAB into anurban caern I wish luck in that and icly would be happy to help."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Everyone knows that the SAB is open to all Gaians"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Anyhow, this sounds like it's largely run its course for the moment. I'ma hop back out and go back to RL work for a while"
• [Gaian] George says, "Except by Cannon it shouldn't be a Ragabash running all the classes. You as a player doing them is cool. But you should maybe pose as a relevant NPC teaching the class"
• [Gaian] Chuck says, "Seems Keandra did not Typ"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Right, there are those who are trying to make those changes, Keandra. But they are outnumbered."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Hell, there's even a camp of Silver Fangs trying to brin gall the tribes, and to a lesser degree the fera, under one banner. Renewalists."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Okay. PRETTY much"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Good ol' Albrecht."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "well In Toms defense they did ask for others to come up and teach :)"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "I know that -now- but back when I pitched the idea for the Island I did NOT know that. I'd been told that bastet weren't even allowed in the SAB anymore."
• [Gaian] Tom says, "thanks Mystery..."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane presses fingers to temples. Reagan, they may be outnumbered /in the world in general/. Whether they're outnumbered locally is something we continue to consider within staff's ability to handwave.
• [Gaian] Chuck says, "And if she did not, then it is a good thing to put up for any with a miss understanding and also as a hinto pf possible rp with new players"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "And Reagan: If you know this why are you so against a place where the fera are working toward that goal?"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "It's a 'Let's stop fighting amogst ourselves, and figh tthe enemey' mentality. The crux is that, they are having trouble convincing many."
• [Gaian] George says, "I'm not saying he shouldn't be doing it as a player I'm just nitpicking about the presentation. Its a minor criticism"
• [Gaian] Tom says, "ya Kasumi taught a few times and Asher has taught on his own time just can't make it because of my own RL time work."
• [Gaian] Chuck says, "Well Keandra I will reveal my other Alt. Liam. And I know of I think two people who have been refused access to the smoke. Neither cats, even when liam wanted to deny access to a particular one he was not."
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane says, "Okay, heading out for really reals now"
• [Gaian] WhoopingCrane has left this channel.
• [Gaian] Tom says, "Acceptance takes time and it's the old arguement Conservatives over Libralists which is all welcome herei n my opinion..."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "no seriously Tom thank you and Liam and Klem for all the work youve done. I know its icly highly effected my pc. as an IC first change..I went from fearing all garou as mosters under the bed to trusting Klem as an wise one."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "At least enough players besides just fera wanted an alternate place to RP that staff agreed to do it."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "I'm not against them working towards that goal. I'm against it becoming canon that there's a large group that can easily gain a foothold."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "I like consistency and continuity in story."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "take a look at the census of how mant fera we have here verses garou"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "weve the numbers to hold a teratory."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Right, but those are Players, not NPC's. THe players are teh 'few'. They are different, special. they can become so much more than any npc can be."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "but the fera also have a larger then normal NPC population"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "So if the players are the few... and my random understanding is that you assume somewhere around 3 to 5 NPCS per 1 PC... then that just makes our numbers greater :P"
• [Gaian] Tom says, "Keandra there are places areas on the grid... What I would do is find one and take it over lol and make a PRP out of it. Bears have one for example hidden in the caves, I think the Ravens have one and the Bastet are. I'm creating my diner which is going to be a 'Supernatural Hangout' for all to hang out at.""
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "WoD is all about the struggle."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "not to mention your smack dab in the middle of Cannon bastet central"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "Tom: Um. That's what we DID."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "But the books still say the garou outnumber the fera."
• [Gaian] Typhanie nods to Tom. That's wha--- what Keandra said
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Even in this area."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "the bastet have at lest two.."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "Although we're not 'taking it over' so much as protecting it."
• [Gaian] Tom nods, "You mean the Island was suppose to be that?"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "There's a ratkin nest as well."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "but that dosnt give us something like a caern"
• [Gaian] Typhanie sighs at Tom. "No."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Exactly, Mystery"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "we want more then just a fera gathering place"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "But, those are sphere specific"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "or rathe,r race specific"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "What they want is a place for ALL shifters."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Which doesn't need to be a caern."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "all fera are welcome at the artemis."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "But they can't be as.. open."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "if that makes sense."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "we have an all shifters place in the artemis"
• [Gaian] Typhanie is getting dizzy with all the circling around and around and around. We're going over the same old stuff.
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "we want an allshifters caern"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Hey that horse is dead. let's beat on it for a while."
• [Gaian] Chuck says, "What about shifters who don't have caerns?"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "But that's another problem Mystery; I created Keandra Jun 13. I didn't know Artemis was even shifter-affiliated until like 2 weeks ago."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Feed 'em grapes."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "artemis is bastet controlled and welcomes all. SAB is garou controled and welcomes all"
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "We just need more info out there"
• [Gaian] Tom says, "I think we just need to coordinate and start opening places... And I think Mystery the Island can still be that hehe... The first place really is the SAB for that but hey it's what it is."
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "To make it easy for players to know what is what, where they can go etc."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "And now we can have the island that is controlled by all and welcomes all"
• [Gaian] George says, "Has anyone read the Ahadi stuff but me?"
• [Gaian] Chuck nods, and once tried to get my garou aceess to some more artimst rp and as others have said about the sab never heard back
• [Gaian] Tom says, "not me George I haven't yet.."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery nods to Keandra..I still beleive we need the Island as a caern and my gnosisis there.
• [Gaian] Keandra just sighs.
• [Gaian] Reagan says, "Welp, time to go pick up my t-shirts that arrived. Remember, shop smart. Shop S-Mart."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "I bet I even know a Dragon we could talk into comming to help protect it."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "Yes. Caerns have special characteristics that we would like ALL shifters to have welcome and equal access to."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "We will not get that at the. This is controlled by X but you're allowed to be here."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "and a "hangout" and a Caern arnt the same.. we all have Hangouts.. we dont have a Caern.. a place of power and leadership"
• [Gaian] Tom says, "Anyone up for creating a Gaian Shifter hang list to put up on the Wiki?"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "that said listing the shifter hangouts and making them more available is -Also- a good idea."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "Learning after the fact, after months of RP that has made me feel unwanted and unwelcomed at these places that are 'open to all' now, when I felt unwelcomed there before does not make me want to go there now."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "I also would love to see Klems group get to make there city caern out of the SAB.."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery nods to Keandra
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "and Artemis under cristobal was hard to find."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "I wouldn't feel welcome there either due to my initial attempts to get RP with cristobal. Again. Felt rather unwanted and unwelcomed. So."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "he kept it on the downlow that he hired shifters and protected all bastet and then latter fera.. Mystery has been slowly working to expand that given Tom and Liam and Klems example."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery nods to keandra
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "I wanted to help create a place where no one would feel unwelcomed."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Some place where 'GAIAN' was the only requirement for equal treatment"
• [Gaian] Keandra nods at Typhanie.
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery thirds that!
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "And a place where fighting and making others feel excluded would not be tolerated."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "And the only way to NOT be invited would be to be a tool and/or be a wyrmy bastard"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "yes."
• [Gaian] Keandra nods.
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "ited be nice to see kinfolk invited as well"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "They are"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "ALL of them"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "wich is not allowed at the forest caern"
• [Gaian] Tom says, "Keandra, if your feeling unwelcome then well start rping out with some new shifter people. Then suggest going to these places you want her to feel welcome and then take them there."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "She did one better. She created a plot to make something else"
• [Gaian] Tom says, "I laugh at that because Kinfolk tend to guard more of the Caerns then GArou during moots it should and is allowed there btw..."
• [Gaian] George says, "unless the people making you feel unwelcome are the ones in charge"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "But that doesn't change the fact that I feel the need to leave when the people who make me feel uncomfortable."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "even the mage kinfolk?"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "There are people not even IN my group who I heard through various different alts of mine were just sitting out in the forest areas because they had nowhere to go and didn't want to go to the only two places they knew of to RP at for shifter stuff."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "because the last time one of the mage kinfolk set foot in the caern the garou sphere banned allkinfolk from events for like 3 events and made them all shifter only."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "When I began hearing THOSE kinds of reports. I pitched my idea to staff."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Yup. Them too. And they will be held to the same rules as everyone else. There are enough NPCs there who could take down a mage who tried anything untoward"
• [Gaian] George says, "mages are glass cannons. They can't even soak lethal 99percent of the time"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "well not to mention with mages abilities a mage kinfolk working as an ally could be vastly useful helping to gather and store gnosis for the caern building."
• [Gaian] Tom says, "mage kinfolk are what they are. If they are Kin they should be allowed but forbidden to touch the caerns heart and gnosis/Quint. If they do then well they do... Rite master is the one that dictates that stuff right? So they would need to follow protocol."
• [Gaian] Tom says, "that's my two cents."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Exactly"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery nods agreement with Tom
• [Gaian] Tom says, "And kinfolk shouldn't be no matter what they are Excluded from Events!"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "The main rule of the Island is pretty simple. No fighting. No raping. This is a peaceful place for ALL Gaian shifters and Kin alike. You will lose access to it if you try to break those simple rules. And there are guards there in place to ensure it."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "NPC ones."
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "yeah a mage whos stupid enough to act up and touch the caern heart without permision in a sept full of shifters of any kind.. deserves the ass shreading death hes about to get :P"
• [Gaian] George says, "do not kill, do not rape, do not steal. These are laws that every shifter of every breed can embrace"
• [Gaian] George says, "....wrong movie"
• [Gaian] Amelia swats George for misuse of the Boondock Saints.
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "but instead of bitching, lets move forward we are now going to have do do a right of building wich means we are going to need 300 or so gnosis."
• [Gaian] George says, "I'll make a pastey with the by the book system for the rite"
• [Gaian] George grins at Amelia because atleast someone got it
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "so some fetish gnosis batterie making and some spirit hunts would make good prps"
• [Gaian] Typhanie nods. Yes. And NPCs can be added to that too, don't forget
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "And it will, no doubt, be an NPC performing the rite"
• [Gaian] Keandra nods.
• [Gaian] George says, "It occurs to me that it might be useful to post this text in something more enduring than a pastey"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Agreed. Make a wiki page"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "For the island?"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Specifically the caern building"
• [Gaian] Keandra has one started but i've been lazy and haven't added anything mainly since it's been sort of in limbo
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "Oh"
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "not for that"
• [Gaian] George says, "that too Keandra. I was talking about the rules for the rite of caern building"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Does anyone here object to me taking this whole conversation and pasting it to the wiki somewhere out of the way so that everyone can see what we've done today?"
• [Gaian] The Littlest Mystery says, "other then my pages, I dont mind."
• [Gaian] Keandra says, "I don't mind."
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "No. Just the stuff on channel"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Tom? Chuck? Ya'll have weighed in heavily. Any objections?"
• [Gaian] Tom says, "I'm up for things just well I'm not good with the Wiki... lol, though I try my best.."
• [Gaian] Typhanie will post it. Just want your permission to put it up there
• [Gaian] Chuck says, "Is pretty much ok with it"
• [Gaian] Typhanie says, "Okay. I'll post it then"